00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.421
[JOHN MCGREEVY] I'd like 
to thank the CCC.

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They funded me 
to do this research,

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and it's been great
working with them.

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It's a really interesting
program

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if you don't know much about it.

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It brings together graduate
students, practitioners,

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faculty,

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to really

00:00:12.825 --> 00:00:15.428
decide what is 
collaborative conservation

00:00:15.818 --> 00:00:16.806
and how to apply it.

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So, my talk, obviously, is 
"TET ANSANM".

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That's Haitian Creole.

00:00:20.632 --> 00:00:22.862
Might seem similar to French,
some of these phrases,

00:00:22.862 --> 00:00:23.792
if I use any.

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That's 'cause

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it was a French colony, 
as any of my students

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could tell you.

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And it's,

00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.614
this is working together,
working with heads together

00:00:32.614 --> 00:00:33.596
in Haitian reforestation.

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Whenever you talk about 
working together in Haiti,

00:00:36.340 --> 00:00:38.064
they love to use 
"tèt ansanm ".

00:00:38.064 --> 00:00:39.029
That means
heads together.

00:00:39.029 --> 00:00:40.284
I love that visual,

00:00:40.612 --> 00:00:41.864
love that idea, 
and we're going to go

00:00:41.864 --> 00:00:43.336
with that today.

00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:45.360
So, all these pictures,

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except for the ones 
with me in them

00:00:46.940 --> 00:00:48.216
I have taken. So..

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Obviously.

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So, just to give people

00:00:52.965 --> 00:00:54.907
a quick background 
on the tree problem in Haiti.

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A lot of people know

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Haiti as the poorest country
in the Western Hemisphere.

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And we'll talk about that 
a little bit.

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Some people know Haiti

00:01:01.274 --> 00:01:03.273
for the massive environmental
degradation.

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Various factors,

00:01:05.091 --> 00:01:06.354
we're going to go into them 
a little bit.

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But basically, 
from 80% to 1.5%

00:01:09.186 --> 00:01:12.781
since the arrival of Columbus 
in 1492.

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And yet, there's still this
Haitian reliance on trees.

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They still rely on them for

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many different uses.

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A big part 
of my thesis research,

00:01:22.087 --> 00:01:24.485
this went into my master's
thesis in anthropology,

00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:26.905
was how Haitians use trees,

00:01:26.905 --> 00:01:29.375
why they use trees, 
and  what is overlooked,

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when we looked at this 
from strictly a business aspect,

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because I went with some
business students.

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And I was looking at the 
more cultural or

00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.652
nontraditional market economy

00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:38.856
uses of trees.

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And then there's been
reforestation attempts

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for 50 to 70 years.

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And yet, that number of trees
cut down to seven times as much

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as the trees planted.

00:01:49.520 --> 00:01:51.342
So, 
there's some disconnect there.

00:01:51.342 --> 00:01:52.800
There's something that's
missing.

00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:54.320
And that was the question
of my research.

00:01:54.320 --> 00:01:55.840
Started out very vague.

00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:57.920
And then, as I went through
with this kind of grounded

00:01:57.920 --> 00:01:59.212
approach of talking 
to the people

00:01:59.212 --> 00:02:01.220
and letting them tell me 
what those issues are.

00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:03.280
Came up with some of what 
that was.

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So, I broke it down into 
these different,

00:02:05.754 --> 00:02:06.587
a lot of this,

00:02:06.587 --> 00:02:09.600
introductory stuff I go into a
lot deeper in my thesis.

00:02:09.600 --> 00:02:10.827
If you're really interested 
in it,

00:02:10.827 --> 00:02:12.299
I can give you a copy of that.

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But I'm gonna kinda fly
through this so I can get to

00:02:14.033 --> 00:02:14.741
the heat,

00:02:14.755 --> 00:02:16.068
the heart of working together.

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So, there are four stages

00:02:18.535 --> 00:02:20.420
in Haitian history 
as I broke them down,

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each with 200 years, 
300 years, 130.

00:02:23.498 --> 00:02:26.166
Something to note is that back
in the early days,

00:02:26.166 --> 00:02:27.756
actually when the Haitians 
ruled them,

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right before the Haitians 
ruled themselves,

00:02:31.760 --> 00:02:33.600
there wasn't that much
deforestation.

00:02:33.600 --> 00:02:35.937
It wasn't until more recently
that that occurred.

00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:37.840
There's many different 
reasons for that.

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We'll be talking about 
some of them.

00:02:39.440 --> 00:02:40.749
Something interesting to note

00:02:40.749 --> 00:02:42.154
is that was- 
there was anywhere from

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one million to eight million 
people on the island,

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and they still had 
80% tree cover.

00:02:47.760 --> 00:02:49.255
So, this whole idea that,

00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:51.255
Haitian, like before

00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:53.888
slaves came, 
before colonizers came,

00:02:53.888 --> 00:02:57.260
there was 80% tree cover, 
one to eight million people

00:02:57.260 --> 00:02:57.997
on the island.

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So, this whole idea that Haiti
is just too overpopulated,

00:03:01.485 --> 00:03:02.729
that does come into play,

00:03:02.729 --> 00:03:04.973
but people have shown that 
you can live on that island

00:03:05.577 --> 00:03:07.340
without deforesting it.

00:03:08.409 --> 00:03:10.240
So why Haiti, why trees?

00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.709
I just kind of happenchance, 
got into Haiti.

00:03:12.709 --> 00:03:14.859
My aunt called me up one 
year and said,

00:03:14.859 --> 00:03:16.764
'Hey, we're going to Haiti 
on a medical mission trip.

00:03:16.764 --> 00:03:17.501
Would you like to come?'

00:03:17.501 --> 00:03:18.245
And I said, 'Yes.'

00:03:18.245 --> 00:03:20.082
It was my first time out 
of the United States,

00:03:20.631 --> 00:03:21.725
and I was floored.

00:03:21.725 --> 00:03:22.490
I just was,

00:03:22.750 --> 00:03:24.603
I've always had a passion 
for the environment,

00:03:25.152 --> 00:03:26.595
and I thought I wanted to 
be a doctor

00:03:26.595 --> 00:03:27.540
before I went there,

00:03:27.540 --> 00:03:29.085
but after I saw
the deforestation,

00:03:29.085 --> 00:03:30.640
that's what I wanted to do.

00:03:30.640 --> 00:03:31.221
I wanted to work

00:03:31.221 --> 00:03:32.636
with local people 
to figure that out.

00:03:33.335 --> 00:03:35.140
I was there during 
2010 earthquake.

00:03:35.682 --> 00:03:37.466
If you guys want to talk 
about that sometime, I could.

00:03:37.863 --> 00:03:39.995
And saw a lot of stuff, 
did a lot of,

00:03:40.565 --> 00:03:42.571
medical things that I would 
not be allowed to do

00:03:42.571 --> 00:03:43.723
in the United States,

00:03:43.723 --> 00:03:45.181
and really connected,

00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:46.393
a lot with the local people.

00:03:46.393 --> 00:03:48.477
Saw how NGOs worked and
how they didn't work.

00:03:48.477 --> 00:03:49.624
And we're gonna talk about that.

00:03:50.720 --> 00:03:52.661
So, why anthropology?

00:03:52.661 --> 00:03:54.959
Some people, especially if
you're a numbers person,

00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:56.741
might think that,

00:03:56.741 --> 00:03:58.792
"Hey, this is kind
of just lofty ideas,

00:03:58.792 --> 00:04:00.240
why are you doing this?"

00:04:00.379 --> 00:04:01.476
But anthropology

00:04:02.049 --> 00:04:05.339
gets to the root 
of local uses of resources.

00:04:05.413 --> 00:04:07.042
So, as Berkey says,

00:04:07.042 --> 00:04:08.533
"People who are dependent 
on local resources

00:04:08.754 --> 00:04:11.022
for their livelihood
are often able to assess the

00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:12.451
health of the environment

00:04:12.451 --> 00:04:14.138
and the integrity of ecosystems

00:04:14.502 --> 00:04:16.756
better than any evaluator 
from the outside."

00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.805
So, that mindset

00:04:19.805 --> 00:04:21.608
is something that's 
very counterintuitive to us

00:04:21.608 --> 00:04:23.996
and counterintuitive to a lot
of NGOs working in Haiti.

00:04:24.506 --> 00:04:26.367
That's why I focused on
anthropology is 'cause

00:04:26.367 --> 00:04:28.496
I believe, 
and research  supports,

00:04:28.702 --> 00:04:31.339
that the big missing factor, 
one of them is culture,

00:04:31.339 --> 00:04:33.238
one of them is history, 
one of them is sitting down

00:04:33.238 --> 00:04:34.560
and talking with the 
local people.

00:04:34.785 --> 00:04:35.986
And the Center for 
Collaborative Conservation

00:04:35.986 --> 00:04:37.499
was a great place to do that.

00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:40.960
So, it gets at the local 
and the outsider knowledge.

00:04:40.960 --> 00:04:42.560
It doesn't rule out 
either of them.

00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:44.554
It talks about the lived
experience of people.

00:04:45.131 --> 00:04:48.709
And then, Haitian reforestation
projects that haven't used

00:04:48.962 --> 00:04:49.919
local understanding have 
failed miserably.

00:04:50.320 --> 00:04:52.062
Ones that have used local
understanding,

00:04:52.062 --> 00:04:54.240
a little bit more collaboration, 
though,

00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:56.750
I'm going to argue that they
can all do more

00:04:56.750 --> 00:04:57.940
as we can in any project,

00:04:59.040 --> 00:04:59.694
have done better.

00:05:00.676 --> 00:05:02.782
So, this is my research methods 
really quick.

00:05:02.782 --> 00:05:06.000
Interviews in different regions, 
three different regions.

00:05:06.845 --> 00:05:08.720
28 in-depth interviews.

00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:10.860
That might seem like not a lot
to some people,

00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:13.495
but that entails 
a lot of sitting down

00:05:13.495 --> 00:05:15.200
and talking for hours and then

00:05:15.200 --> 00:05:16.830
four hours of writing that up

00:05:16.830 --> 00:05:19.349
and then a couple more hours 
of picking out all the codes.

00:05:19.507 --> 00:05:21.600
It's actually very 
time-intensive.

00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:23.487
So, 40 hours of recorded audio,

00:05:23.955 --> 00:05:26.087
take about seven hours 
of added work

00:05:26.087 --> 00:05:28.077
onto each hour of those
audio,

00:05:28.077 --> 00:05:29.625
and that's a lot
that comes into play.

00:05:30.110 --> 00:05:32.443
Field observations,
participatory observations,

00:05:32.443 --> 00:05:33.810
working in the fields 
with people.

00:05:34.080 --> 00:05:36.372
That, more than anything, 
helped them to just trust me

00:05:36.372 --> 00:05:37.935
and to work with me. 
It was really great.

00:05:38.392 --> 00:05:40.643
Focus groups and then a little
bit of website analysis.

00:05:40.643 --> 00:05:42.008
Which we'll talk about here.

00:05:42.686 --> 00:05:44.003
So, I went to these 
three different places,

00:05:44.003 --> 00:05:46.125
Petit Bois, Deschapelles, 
and Anse Rouge.

00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:48.480
Very distinct, 
different ecosystems.

00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:49.518
That's kind of what 
I was going for,

00:05:49.518 --> 00:05:51.546
see how projects in these 
different ecosystems work.

00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:56.350
So, some of, most of this 
I go into my thesis.

00:05:57.036 --> 00:05:57.876
We're gonna pull out

00:05:57.876 --> 00:05:59.436
the bottom part 
and focus on that,

00:05:59.440 --> 00:06:01.120
'cause we are focused on 
collaborative conservation

00:06:01.641 --> 00:06:03.422
and Tet Ansanm could be 
substituted in there.

00:06:04.686 --> 00:06:06.431
So, what is missing 
from the literature,

00:06:06.431 --> 00:06:07.246
from my research,

00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:08.240
from these interviews?

00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:09.007
I came up with culture

00:06:09.561 --> 00:06:10.730
and the lived experience 
of people,

00:06:10.730 --> 00:06:12.425
the local context, local uses.

00:06:12.880 --> 00:06:13.920
Systemic causes,

00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:15.611
so causes that aren’t 
direct causes,

00:06:15.611 --> 00:06:17.513
but throughout history, 
how have-

00:06:18.143 --> 00:06:20.221
how has deforestation 
taken hold?

00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:23.764
And then, local knowledge,

00:06:24.937 --> 00:06:26.160
and we'll talk about that 
a little bit

00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:27.467
in comparison 
to scientific knowledge

00:06:27.872 --> 00:06:29.678
and this Tet Ansanm Mindset.

00:06:29.678 --> 00:06:31.586
Shifting completely 
this mindset.

00:06:31.586 --> 00:06:32.878
It's not just a little band-aid,

00:06:32.878 --> 00:06:34.552
it's complete shift from,

00:06:34.955 --> 00:06:35.955
we’re coming to do work,

00:06:35.955 --> 00:06:37.233
to we’re working 
with these people.

00:06:38.880 --> 00:06:41.480
So, the literature on Haitian
reforestatoin

00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.244
talks about land tenure 
and charcoal production.

00:06:44.440 --> 00:06:46.667
They talk about things that 
the local people are doing

00:06:47.187 --> 00:06:49.850
that are impacting
the deforestation.

00:06:50.320 --> 00:06:51.420
And they're talking about
corruption,

00:06:51.557 --> 00:06:53.497
and these things 
do have an impact.

00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:56.541
But, when I talk to people 
and ask them,

00:06:57.034 --> 00:06:58.355
'Why do you cut down trees?'

00:06:58.355 --> 00:06:59.891
These didn't make the top list.

00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:03.582
Charcoal production did, 
but that was an afterthought

00:07:03.582 --> 00:07:05.111
from these systemic causes

00:07:05.111 --> 00:07:06.238
that we'll talk about 
in a little bit.

00:07:06.447 --> 00:07:07.894
'I needed money to feed my
children.'

00:07:08.290 --> 00:07:10.826
'I needed money because of 
the influx of USAID.'

00:07:10.840 --> 00:07:13.857
'My food crops 
are no longer viable.'

00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.006
'I needed money because of the
changing climate.'

00:07:17.203 --> 00:07:20.685
'My food crops no longer 
produce as they used to.

00:07:20.907 --> 00:07:22.446
So I need to cut down trees
for easy money.'

00:07:22.615 --> 00:07:23.191
And so there’s,

00:07:23.511 --> 00:07:25.192
the mindset is a focus on

00:07:25.663 --> 00:07:27.354
current citizens
and increasing-

00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.300
there's a little bit of
increasing emphasis

00:07:29.300 --> 00:07:29.805
on local needs

00:07:29.805 --> 00:07:30.495
but there's a lot of,

00:07:30.845 --> 00:07:33.176
'we need to educate people about 
how important trees are.'

00:07:34.343 --> 00:07:35.883
I think that mindset 
should be shift,

00:07:35.883 --> 00:07:37.148
as supported by my research.

00:07:37.148 --> 00:07:40.017
People talk to me all the time
about how important trees are.

00:07:40.017 --> 00:07:42.240
"pyebwa yo se lavi" 
Trees are life.

00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.626
They would throw that out there
whenever I talked about trees.

00:07:44.973 --> 00:07:46.594
So I'm looking at more how to

00:07:48.320 --> 00:07:51.709
talk about interacting factors,
historical influences,

00:07:51.709 --> 00:07:53.280
and how to really work together.

00:07:53.421 --> 00:07:54.800
This, we're not going to go
through everything.

00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.928
This just shows you a little
bit of how I broke down

00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:58.674
four different NGOs

00:07:58.674 --> 00:08:00.846
working on 
deforestation in Haiti.

00:08:01.284 --> 00:08:02.432
And I looked through-

00:08:03.716 --> 00:08:05.382
from Kathy Sherman.

00:08:05.382 --> 00:08:06.667
She's actually 
in our department.

00:08:06.667 --> 00:08:09.085
She has these barriers to 
Tet Ansanm,

00:08:09.461 --> 00:08:10.746
or participatory mindset.

00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:13.680
And I'm sorry, 
it might be Berkey's too.

00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:14.717
I forget which one it was.

00:08:14.717 --> 00:08:16.400
But, one of those great authors,

00:08:16.400 --> 00:08:17.280
and they come up with this,

00:08:17.280 --> 00:08:20.128
and then I broke them down
on what barriers there might be.

00:08:20.475 --> 00:08:21.625
That's a lot there.

00:08:21.625 --> 00:08:23.184
If you want that e-mail to you,
I can.

00:08:23.184 --> 00:08:25.280
But we're just going to, 
I broke them down a little bit

00:08:25.280 --> 00:08:26.738
into some issues from projects.

00:08:26.752 --> 00:08:28.156
A lot of these projects did
really good work.

00:08:28.726 --> 00:08:29.889
Some of them, 
they've been planting

00:08:29.889 --> 00:08:30.986
a lot of good trees.

00:08:32.586 --> 00:08:34.262
But those trees 
aren't staying there.

00:08:34.262 --> 00:08:36.386
And there might be something
that's not connecting.

00:08:36.386 --> 00:08:39.195
So, IK stands for 
indigenous knowledge.

00:08:39.844 --> 00:08:41.576
SK stands for 
scientific knowledge.

00:08:44.054 --> 00:08:46.400
So, issues from many, 
but not all projects.

00:08:46.400 --> 00:08:48.175
I'm not throwing all projects
in the same loop.

00:08:48.175 --> 00:08:49.867
And, I didn't really look

00:08:49.867 --> 00:08:52.357
at any projects that are 
based here in Fort Collins,

00:08:52.357 --> 00:08:53.278
because I have a bias.

00:08:53.278 --> 00:08:54.283
I'm close with them

00:08:54.593 --> 00:08:56.682
and I feel like that might 
get in the way of my analysis.

00:08:56.682 --> 00:08:59.680
So anything from here
can be applied to all projects,

00:08:59.680 --> 00:09:00.880
but I don't focus on them.

00:09:02.135 --> 00:09:04.524
So indigenous knowledge
is occasionally recognized,

00:09:04.638 --> 00:09:05.840
but it's rarely implemented.

00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:06.838
People are interested,

00:09:06.838 --> 00:09:09.259
'Oh, you think that spirits
live in these trees?

00:09:09.259 --> 00:09:09.998
That's interesting.

00:09:10.345 --> 00:09:11.721
Well, we're going to plant 
something different

00:09:12.054 --> 00:09:13.174
and not worry about that.'

00:09:14.357 --> 00:09:16.560
Some projects were better at 
than others.

00:09:16.560 --> 00:09:18.916
Most of them focus on 
hard science and numbers,

00:09:19.025 --> 00:09:20.232
'cause that's what the donors 
wanna see.

00:09:20.283 --> 00:09:21.027
They want to see numbers.

00:09:22.542 --> 00:09:25.035
Some of that social spiritual
expression

00:09:25.035 --> 00:09:26.613
about the spiritual uses 
of trees

00:09:26.613 --> 00:09:28.645
was talked about
but not taken into effect

00:09:28.645 --> 00:09:29.933
or just completely ignored.

00:09:31.520 --> 00:09:34.880
Outsiders coming in
who has heard,

00:09:34.880 --> 00:09:36.217
what people in the community,

00:09:36.217 --> 00:09:37.978
most often it's people 
that speak French,

00:09:38.228 --> 00:09:40.097
because a lot of NGOs 
that come into the country

00:09:40.097 --> 00:09:42.291
don't take time 
to learn the local language,

00:09:42.291 --> 00:09:43.959
and so if you have that,

00:09:43.959 --> 00:09:45.020
the people that come
up to you and say,

00:09:45.020 --> 00:09:46.062
'Hey, I'll be your translator,'

00:09:46.329 --> 00:09:47.477
they're most often 
the people you work with,

00:09:47.477 --> 00:09:48.541
the people you listen to.

00:09:48.541 --> 00:09:50.913
That's the funnel through which
all the interviews are fed.

00:09:51.693 --> 00:09:53.628
If they speak English, 
even better.

00:09:53.920 --> 00:09:56.745
So I tried to go out of my way
to talk to people that

00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:58.881
hated NGOs, people that,

00:09:59.509 --> 00:10:01.468
to get a whole 
different wide view,

00:10:01.468 --> 00:10:02.317
'cause there is wide view.

00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:03.760
NGOs do a lot of great things.

00:10:03.760 --> 00:10:05.359
They also do 
a lot of bad things.

00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:07.680
And so,

00:10:08.006 --> 00:10:09.665
some people call Haiti 
the Republic of NGOs

00:10:09.665 --> 00:10:11.641
just based on the number 
which is more than,

00:10:12.213 --> 00:10:15.087
more per capita 
than any place

00:10:15.087 --> 00:10:17.340
throughout human history 
is in Haiti.

00:10:18.832 --> 00:10:20.464
And then there's this perceived

00:10:20.464 --> 00:10:21.792
benevolence of people.

00:10:21.792 --> 00:10:23.798
You hear a project 
is doing work in Haiti.

00:10:23.798 --> 00:10:25.360
It's perceived. 
It must be good work.

00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:26.470
But just like any business,

00:10:26.470 --> 00:10:29.125
any organization, 
not all of them are good.

00:10:30.310 --> 00:10:32.326
And so, there's this 
lack of checks and balances.

00:10:32.743 --> 00:10:34.569
The interesting part, 
if you want more on this,

00:10:34.569 --> 00:10:35.775
you can read Mark Shuler.

00:10:35.775 --> 00:10:38.275
He talks about how 
the reason that so many NGOs

00:10:38.275 --> 00:10:39.085
came to the country

00:10:39.085 --> 00:10:41.202
was we wanted more
increased transparency

00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:43.675
and we wanted to be able to,

00:10:43.675 --> 00:10:45.440
so we wanted to be able to 
see what people were doing.

00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:46.368
We wanted less corruption.

00:10:47.032 --> 00:10:49.797
And yet, these groups 
don't come together.

00:10:49.797 --> 00:10:51.120
There's not much feeding back.

00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:53.280
There's not much of that
transparency going on.

00:10:53.280 --> 00:10:55.512
So, we have that problem 
being fed

00:10:55.512 --> 00:10:56.399
over and over again.

00:10:57.834 --> 00:10:58.483
Moving on,

00:10:58.483 --> 00:11:00.115
into the heart of what 
I want to talk about,

00:11:00.753 --> 00:11:02.160
Tet Ansanm, working together.

00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:04.563
Sorry, I blew flew some of
that stuff about my research.

00:11:04.563 --> 00:11:06.751
But these are suggestions 
from the local people

00:11:07.280 --> 00:11:09.375
and from, myself

00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:10.542
after meeting with local
people,

00:11:10.542 --> 00:11:11.914
after meeting with NGOs,

00:11:11.914 --> 00:11:15.222
after reading the literature 
and working that all together.

00:11:15.222 --> 00:11:18.000
So, just some quotes because I
feel like they're more powerful

00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:18.837
when they come from the people.

00:11:19.388 --> 00:11:22.291
When I asked them after getting
to know them over months

00:11:22.291 --> 00:11:22.990
or a month,

00:11:23.828 --> 00:11:25.878
'Sit down and speak with people 
before doing projects.'

00:11:27.256 --> 00:11:27.985
Sounds pretty simple.

00:11:28.180 --> 00:11:29.090
These people live here.

00:11:29.657 --> 00:11:30.900
They're the ones 
that you're impacting.

00:11:30.900 --> 00:11:33.533
If somebody came into the 
United States and said,

00:11:33.934 --> 00:11:35.580
'You see all those
cars that you have?

00:11:36.249 --> 00:11:37.713
That's really destroying 
your environment.

00:11:38.150 --> 00:11:39.268
You need to stop doing that.

00:11:39.268 --> 00:11:40.601
So we're just going
to shut that all down.'

00:11:41.364 --> 00:11:42.468
What would that do 
to our economy?

00:11:42.468 --> 00:11:43.548
If you put it in that 
perspective,

00:11:43.548 --> 00:11:44.382
it's a little different.

00:11:44.382 --> 00:11:45.012
Then you come and say,

00:11:45.012 --> 00:11:46.576
'See all these trees that 
you're cutting down?

00:11:47.026 --> 00:11:48.837
Stop doing that. 
It's bad for the environment.'

00:11:49.427 --> 00:11:51.478
It's a little bit different 
when you shift that mindest.

00:11:51.831 --> 00:11:53.471
You need to consider
the day-to-day needs,

00:11:53.471 --> 00:11:54.741
not just the long-term.

00:11:54.741 --> 00:11:56.374
So a lot of these projects 
look at long-term,

00:11:56.374 --> 00:11:58.096
but they don't think
about what happens if,

00:11:59.280 --> 00:12:01.543
maladies come up, illnesses.
If-

00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:05.099
Since now schools are not
taught in the home,

00:12:05.099 --> 00:12:06.248
or not taught in the community,

00:12:06.248 --> 00:12:07.485
you need to purchase schools.

00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.967
Don't think about what happens 
each time you need to buy

00:12:10.328 --> 00:12:10.888
schooling.

00:12:11.351 --> 00:12:13.411
Have multiple NGOs that people
can choose from

00:12:13.411 --> 00:12:14.611
so that people can choose

00:12:14.611 --> 00:12:16.532
who is the best job.
I love that idea.

00:12:16.801 --> 00:12:19.777
Not just one NGO coming in, 
staking the territory,

00:12:19.777 --> 00:12:22.284
saying, 'This is my region. 
All the NGOs stay out.'

00:12:22.725 --> 00:12:25.085
But multiple coming in, 
the people saying,

00:12:25.085 --> 00:12:26.613
'Hey, which one should 
we choose?

00:12:26.613 --> 00:12:27.911
Which one works best?'

00:12:27.911 --> 00:12:29.459
It's what we do in
the United States

00:12:29.459 --> 00:12:30.238
for business practices.

00:12:30.238 --> 00:12:31.067
We want to build a
school.

00:12:31.067 --> 00:12:32.265
You have a bunch of 
contractors come in.

00:12:32.265 --> 00:12:33.823
Which one can do what 
we want to do

00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:34.615
for the least amount of money?

00:12:35.390 --> 00:12:36.536
"Keep promises."

00:12:36.571 --> 00:12:38.704
I saw this one 
over and over again.

00:12:38.704 --> 00:12:39.765
I should have that in bold.

00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:41.127
I myself,

00:12:41.257 --> 00:12:43.863
have not done the best 
of this from time to time.

00:12:43.863 --> 00:12:45.432
I have gone back to the 
community,

00:12:45.432 --> 00:12:46.609
keep my promise of coming back

00:12:46.609 --> 00:12:48.213
and bringing 
my results back there.

00:12:49.297 --> 00:12:50.379
But that was the biggest thing.

00:12:50.379 --> 00:12:53.101
And you see, 
I call it NGO contamination.

00:12:54.074 --> 00:12:56.462
The places that NGOs have been
over and over again,

00:12:56.462 --> 00:12:58.835
there's kind of hardened hearts 
there towards outsiders.

00:12:59.718 --> 00:13:01.003
There's this mindset of,

00:13:01.272 --> 00:13:02.698
'Are they going to be 
just like the last people

00:13:02.698 --> 00:13:04.459
that promised that they would 
bring something back,

00:13:04.459 --> 00:13:05.232
but didn't and left.'

00:13:06.690 --> 00:13:07.858
And then this is kinda
paraphrased,

00:13:07.858 --> 00:13:09.773
'Only do projects that address 
the day-to-day needs,

00:13:09.773 --> 00:13:11.104
not just long-term
benefits.'

00:13:11.427 --> 00:13:13.110
I believe that talked about
that up there too.

00:13:13.710 --> 00:13:16.243
So, one suggestion 
from all that,

00:13:16.442 --> 00:13:17.705
bringing together 
all that they say,

00:13:17.705 --> 00:13:19.130
alter donor relations.

00:13:19.496 --> 00:13:21.406
A big part of the reason 
people do what they do

00:13:21.406 --> 00:13:23.954
in these NGOs is because donors
give them money and say,

00:13:24.058 --> 00:13:26.775
'I want it for this. 
I want it for that.'

00:13:26.938 --> 00:13:27.644
Big example of this,

00:13:27.644 --> 00:13:28.909
the first time I went to Haiti,

00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.152
I went to this rural, rural
village,

00:13:31.578 --> 00:13:33.238
and there was 
a big generator there.

00:13:34.325 --> 00:13:36.056
And it hadn't been used 
in years.

00:13:36.056 --> 00:13:38.231
And I asked, 'Well, why is there 
a big generator here?'

00:13:38.373 --> 00:13:39.369
It looked brand new,

00:13:39.369 --> 00:13:40.320
but it was inside this

00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:41.535
really nice concrete building,

00:13:41.535 --> 00:13:42.790
the only concrete building 
in the village.

00:13:43.375 --> 00:13:43.909
And they were like,

00:13:43.909 --> 00:13:47.503
'Well, somebody gave us $40,000

00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.480
but said it had to be used 
for a generator.'

00:13:50.184 --> 00:13:51.233
Had to be used for a generator.

00:13:51.233 --> 00:13:52.322
Because in America,

00:13:53.385 --> 00:13:55.620
the donors were telling them, 
they need electricity.

00:13:55.658 --> 00:13:56.804
That is what they need 
right now.

00:13:56.804 --> 00:13:58.458
They will be okay
if they have electricity.

00:13:58.600 --> 00:13:59.755
Well they didn't take 
into account

00:13:59.755 --> 00:14:00.751
is that it's 
an eight-hour drive

00:14:00.751 --> 00:14:01.729
through bumpy roads.

00:14:01.867 --> 00:14:03.048
Diesel is very expensive.

00:14:03.245 --> 00:14:05.131
And they didn't fund for the 
increasing cost of Diesel.

00:14:05.618 --> 00:14:08.926
So, some people even said,

00:14:08.926 --> 00:14:10.219
We are slaves to the donors.

00:14:10.284 --> 00:14:11.418
We are slaves to the people,

00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:13.101
particularly large-scale donors,

00:14:13.621 --> 00:14:14.664
that tell us what we need to do.

00:14:16.295 --> 00:14:17.667
Change that, change of that,

00:14:19.091 --> 00:14:21.314
presentation to donors can
happen in multiple ways.

00:14:21.321 --> 00:14:22.911
Can happen in websites.

00:14:23.306 --> 00:14:24.464
I've looked through 
a bunch of websites

00:14:24.464 --> 00:14:28.218
and looked how people, 
the local people were presented.

00:14:28.744 --> 00:14:30.871
Most of it was presented as,

00:14:30.871 --> 00:14:32.497
'We're going in 
to help this country

00:14:32.497 --> 00:14:33.505
that we've never been before.

00:14:33.505 --> 00:14:35.996
The U.S. hasn't really 
been involved with.

00:14:36.907 --> 00:14:37.924
And we're going to basically,

00:14:37.924 --> 00:14:39.510
save them from 
their environmental despair.'

00:14:39.510 --> 00:14:40.339
Not with all of them,

00:14:40.686 --> 00:14:42.494
but with some of them,
that's what came across.

00:14:42.668 --> 00:14:44.266
Most of them had some sort of,

00:14:44.640 --> 00:14:47.598
outsiders teaching these people
how to farm their land.

00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.032
And very rarely,
did I see

00:14:50.032 --> 00:14:51.745
local-to-local connections

00:14:51.745 --> 00:14:52.863
or a sort of,

00:14:53.398 --> 00:14:54.547
talkback and forth,

00:14:54.634 --> 00:14:56.496
a collaboration, if you will,
going on.

00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:00.050
This idea of education, 
we'll talk about a little bit.

00:15:00.050 --> 00:15:01.136
The US is infallible.

00:15:01.136 --> 00:15:03.718
If the US brings something, 
it's assumed to be correct.

00:15:04.560 --> 00:15:06.171
And it's the only country 
with the last name

00:15:06.171 --> 00:15:07.667
used over and over again.

00:15:07.667 --> 00:15:08.640
And it is true.

00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:10.252
The poorest country in 
the Western Hemisphere.

00:15:10.545 --> 00:15:11.663
But if that's all
you hear,

00:15:11.968 --> 00:15:12.722
over and over again

00:15:12.722 --> 00:15:13.487
about the Haitian people,

00:15:13.487 --> 00:15:15.104
the poorest country 
in the Western Hemisphere,

00:15:15.865 --> 00:15:17.729
what does that make
you think about their ability

00:15:17.961 --> 00:15:19.146
to work,

00:15:19.363 --> 00:15:21.817
and to really build
their own country up?

00:15:23.231 --> 00:15:26.562
So, understanding 
historic reasons

00:15:27.965 --> 00:15:32.080
for this, all of these,
this deforestation, or for,

00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:33.261
which is 
a whole different thing.

00:15:33.261 --> 00:15:34.604
But, I'm gonna talk about

00:15:34.604 --> 00:15:36.158
two local resistance.

00:15:36.451 --> 00:15:38.612
So if you go into, 
I've had a lot of NGOs say,

00:15:38.612 --> 00:15:40.213
'We come here and we
bring these projects,

00:15:40.213 --> 00:15:41.700
and these people 
just don't want them.

00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:43.764
They're not appreciative 
of us coming here.'

00:15:44.193 --> 00:15:47.083
From an outsider, 
I can completely respect,

00:15:47.083 --> 00:15:49.332
from that point of view, 
that can be very troubling.

00:15:49.332 --> 00:15:51.158
You spend a lot of money.
You spend a lot of time.

00:15:51.760 --> 00:15:52.984
You really work really hard.

00:15:52.984 --> 00:15:54.788
You want to do good things.

00:15:55.151 --> 00:15:55.915
And yet,

00:15:56.640 --> 00:15:57.597
they don't want you there.

00:15:58.414 --> 00:16:00.610
And there needs to be 
an understanding

00:16:00.610 --> 00:16:01.899
of why that might be.

00:16:02.272 --> 00:16:02.968
So, really quick,

00:16:02.968 --> 00:16:04.046
I'm going to ask, 
and it's okay

00:16:04.046 --> 00:16:04.971
if you didn't know this.

00:16:05.106 --> 00:16:07.505
My class, if I told you this, 
it doesn't count.

00:16:07.862 --> 00:16:10.337
Raise your hand if you knew
that the United States

00:16:10.880 --> 00:16:14.036
ruled Haiti, ruled over Haiti,
kicked out the government,

00:16:14.116 --> 00:16:17.416
and stayed there 
for 20 years last century.

00:16:17.416 --> 00:16:20.924
Anybody know that?
A couple of people. 'Kay cool.

00:16:21.637 --> 00:16:23.977
Did anybody know that the 
amount of deforestation

00:16:23.980 --> 00:16:26.557
during those 20 years 
was more than the entire history

00:16:26.557 --> 00:16:30.322
of the country of Haiti?
'Kay.

00:16:30.322 --> 00:16:31.930
I didn't know that 
until I researched it.

00:16:32.290 --> 00:16:33.840
Did anybody know that we

00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.047
sent funding to dictators,

00:16:36.047 --> 00:16:39.269
but we didn't fund the only
Democratic-elected president?

00:16:39.678 --> 00:16:40.991
I did not know that.

00:16:41.529 --> 00:16:44.229
Did you know that, 
in the '80s, this is the '80s,

00:16:44.229 --> 00:16:45.151
'this is in the past,

00:16:45.708 --> 00:16:48.440
we decided that we wanted 
to teach them about their pigs,

00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.636
which were having swine flu 
all around the Caribbean.

00:16:50.873 --> 00:16:53.273
So we killed all the 
millions of their pigs,

00:16:53.630 --> 00:16:56.417
brought them white pigs, 
and all the white pigs died.

00:16:57.043 --> 00:16:59.093
And that was their farming,
their system of banking.

00:16:59.230 --> 00:17:00.161
I didn't know that either.

00:17:00.755 --> 00:17:02.271
Did anybody know that we,

00:17:03.045 --> 00:17:05.468
this is very controversial, 
so I'm not gonna say we did it,

00:17:05.468 --> 00:17:07.918
but we were present
during a coup d'état,

00:17:09.086 --> 00:17:11.951
and flew the only 
democratically elected president

00:17:11.951 --> 00:17:14.721
of Haiti from Haiti
to the Central African Republic,

00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:16.982
and forcibly 
made him stay there.

00:17:18.209 --> 00:17:20.682
Also that U.S. businesses 
have encouraged

00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:23.177
minimum wage to stay at a low,

00:17:23.177 --> 00:17:24.654
below a couple of dollars a day,

00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.669
including Disney, Old Navy,
other places like that.

00:17:28.078 --> 00:17:30.976
And also that Monsanto 
has delivered

00:17:31.352 --> 00:17:33.098
tons and tons of seed as aid,

00:17:33.587 --> 00:17:35.942
and the Haitians were,
right after the earthquake,

00:17:35.942 --> 00:17:36.787
and the Haitians were like,

00:17:36.787 --> 00:17:38.664
'We are fed up with this,' 
and they burned it all.

00:17:39.523 --> 00:17:41.919
So, this stuff,

00:17:42.492 --> 00:17:44.618
some of this is done with
good intentions,

00:17:44.979 --> 00:17:46.652
is maybe why these 
Haitian people,

00:17:46.652 --> 00:17:48.047
they know this stuff, 
we don't know this stuff.

00:17:48.262 --> 00:17:50.000
Maybe why they're a little
resistant to another

00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:51.769
white man coming to their
country and saying,

00:17:52.024 --> 00:17:53.349
'You're doing it wrong,

00:17:53.349 --> 00:17:54.552
I'm going to show you 
how to do it.'

00:17:55.152 --> 00:17:55.961
So that needs to,

00:17:55.961 --> 00:17:57.216
we need to have 
a humble attitude.

00:17:57.328 --> 00:17:59.077
We're not coming there to 
save these people.

00:17:59.285 --> 00:18:00.131
We're coming there with people

00:18:00.131 --> 00:18:02.130
that have really screwed up
stuff in the past,

00:18:02.414 --> 00:18:02.991
for our history,

00:18:02.991 --> 00:18:05.721
maybe not as personally,
and we can work together.

00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:07.518
Some anthropologists say,

00:18:07.834 --> 00:18:10.619
'Don't go to the country at all.
Don't go do development work.'

00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:11.757
And that's a different mindset.

00:18:12.436 --> 00:18:13.469
Some of that is valid.

00:18:14.406 --> 00:18:15.351
I'm not that way.

00:18:15.351 --> 00:18:16.528
I think that
things can get better

00:18:16.528 --> 00:18:17.379
by working together,

00:18:17.379 --> 00:18:18.615
we can prove these relations,

00:18:18.615 --> 00:18:19.818
but we come with a mindset of,

00:18:19.818 --> 00:18:21.728
'Why don't these people 
want us to help them.'

00:18:22.183 --> 00:18:23.519
That's not going to do 
as much good as

00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.388
if we come in and
have a humble attitude.

00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:28.809
In my opinion.
My humble opinion.

00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:30.200
So,

00:18:31.523 --> 00:18:32.809
rethinking this

00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.960
model of educating and training

00:18:37.858 --> 00:18:38.595
local people.

00:18:39.329 --> 00:18:40.728
So, there is this idea,

00:18:41.384 --> 00:18:43.016
a lot of donors say,

00:18:43.016 --> 00:18:45.021
'Hey, we need to, 
we're going to fund this,

00:18:45.021 --> 00:18:47.176
but we only will fund it

00:18:47.176 --> 00:18:49.040
if there's a big portion 
related to

00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:50.126
educating local people.'

00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:53.336
Educating them about proper
farm techniques.

00:18:53.336 --> 00:18:55.040
Educating them about

00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:56.400
the importance of trees.

00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:57.562
Well, 
like I talked about earlier,

00:18:58.004 --> 00:18:59.202
I haven't met many Haitians

00:18:59.202 --> 00:19:00.707
that didn't know the
importance of trees.

00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:03.809
There were even people that
almost broke out into tears

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.966
talking about how they had to
cut down the trees

00:19:05.966 --> 00:19:07.431
that their grandparents 
had planted,

00:19:07.431 --> 00:19:08.940
and they felt 
so sorry about that.

00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:11.104
But they just had to
feed their kids.

00:19:12.517 --> 00:19:14.294
Rethinking that mindset of,

00:19:14.771 --> 00:19:16.382
"Do we really need to 
educate these people?"

00:19:16.382 --> 00:19:17.835
One example of this,

00:19:17.994 --> 00:19:20.240
that there's still videos 
coming out.

00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.785
I showed my class one 
the other day

00:19:21.785 --> 00:19:25.287
of a USAID-funded—millions
and millions of dollars,

00:19:25.287 --> 00:19:26.369
huge impact,

00:19:26.850 --> 00:19:29.531
telling them that monocropping,

00:19:29.531 --> 00:19:31.879
you hear, you see one Haitian 
that's interviewed,

00:19:31.879 --> 00:19:32.764
and he says,

00:19:32.904 --> 00:19:34.858
"Well, I learned that I've 
been doing it wrong

00:19:34.858 --> 00:19:35.471
my whole life,

00:19:35.608 --> 00:19:37.172
and that monocropping 
is the only way

00:19:37.172 --> 00:19:38.258
to really get good,

00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:40.565
value out of my crops."

00:19:41.598 --> 00:19:43.955
And you have these scientific
tests that show, yeah,

00:19:43.955 --> 00:19:45.906
next year, 
their crops went up.

00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:47.472
They got more and more crops.

00:19:48.781 --> 00:19:51.004
And then we're starting to
learn here in science,

00:19:51.004 --> 00:19:52.240
'cause science isn't infallible.

00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.480
It's constantly changing, 
just like local knowledge.

00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:56.160
We're starting to learn, 
maybe monocropping

00:19:56.716 --> 00:19:57.947
isn't as good 
as we thought it was.

00:19:57.947 --> 00:19:59.452
Maybe we're having problems
here in the United States.

00:19:59.474 --> 00:20:02.068
Maybe for these countries 
that have very thin topsoil

00:20:02.068 --> 00:20:03.928
because of the deforestation,
monocropping,

00:20:04.239 --> 00:20:06.076
a couple years good, done,

00:20:07.196 --> 00:20:07.868
desertified.

00:20:08.328 --> 00:20:10.216
And that's something we're
seeing in the Northwest.

00:20:10.560 --> 00:20:13.246
That, coupled with 
the changing climate,

00:20:13.246 --> 00:20:14.508
is leading to people

00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:16.691
being unable to feed
themselves,

00:20:17.030 --> 00:20:19.805
being unable to even 
harvest back enough seeds

00:20:19.805 --> 00:20:21.120
to plant crops the next year.

00:20:21.120 --> 00:20:22.942
So they need to buy them, 
cut down more trees,

00:20:22.956 --> 00:20:23.996
the cycle continues.

00:20:24.513 --> 00:20:25.705
Because of this,

00:20:27.038 --> 00:20:29.480
idea that we need to train them
to use monocrop culture.

00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:31.333
So this was a monocrop farm,
right here.

00:20:31.817 --> 00:20:33.120
Climate change came up 
the next year.

00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:34.393
Some of the more
drought-resistant plants

00:20:34.393 --> 00:20:35.158
weren't there.

00:20:36.379 --> 00:20:38.356
They were told 
that they would compete,

00:20:38.356 --> 00:20:39.305
overcompete with each other.

00:20:39.305 --> 00:20:40.135
They should be out of there.

00:20:40.389 --> 00:20:43.714
And so this farmer 
lost all of his corn crops,

00:20:44.455 --> 00:20:45.326
100% of them.

00:20:45.463 --> 00:20:46.880
So, then what do you do?

00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.431
Do you apply for a loan?

00:20:48.886 --> 00:20:50.000
Do you get indebted to that?

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:51.360
It's a very tough situation.

00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:53.171
Most people, if they had trees,
they cut them down.

00:20:54.696 --> 00:20:57.214
So, if we're looking at why,
this comes full circle,

00:20:57.214 --> 00:20:59.260
if we're looking
at why deforestation happens,

00:21:00.187 --> 00:21:00.913
are what we're doing

00:21:00.913 --> 00:21:02.414
when we're telling people 
they need to be educated

00:21:02.414 --> 00:21:04.485
on our uses of land,

00:21:04.808 --> 00:21:06.520
does that 
increase deforestation?

00:21:07.027 --> 00:21:08.278
And so when we're funding 
these projects,

00:21:08.278 --> 00:21:09.940
are we funding
more deforestation?

00:21:10.329 --> 00:21:10.835
So,

00:21:11.756 --> 00:21:12.996
my thought,

00:21:13.413 --> 00:21:14.950
and it's not my idea,

00:21:14.950 --> 00:21:16.272
it's ideas from local people,

00:21:16.522 --> 00:21:18.689
is have conversations.

00:21:19.630 --> 00:21:22.254
People in one ravine 
of the mountains

00:21:22.449 --> 00:21:23.972
are really good at

00:21:24.560 --> 00:21:25.907
splicing different

00:21:25.907 --> 00:21:27.740
types of mangoes together 
to create a tree

00:21:27.740 --> 00:21:28.874
that's very profitable,

00:21:28.874 --> 00:21:29.965
has lots of mangoes in it.

00:21:30.388 --> 00:21:31.826
Other, on the other side 
of the mountain,

00:21:32.141 --> 00:21:32.892
they're asking me,

00:21:33.166 --> 00:21:35.584
'Do you know how to do this?
Can we pay somebody to do this?'

00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:37.608
And yet on this side, 
they know a little bit more

00:21:37.608 --> 00:21:38.473
about permaculture,

00:21:38.473 --> 00:21:40.711
how to use 
different groups together.

00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:41.399
And so,

00:21:41.659 --> 00:21:44.078
creating a sort of dialogue
between people

00:21:44.078 --> 00:21:45.381
that have this 
local knowledge,

00:21:45.688 --> 00:21:46.807
and if we have stuff to add

00:21:46.807 --> 00:21:48.720
that we feel like is pertinent, 
we can put it out there.

00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:50.522
If they tell us 
that that's not right,

00:21:50.739 --> 00:21:52.911
then we have to 
be okay with that.

00:21:55.472 --> 00:21:57.480
And so these are ideas that
local people had.

00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:58.923
"Hey, how about 
we bring people together?

00:21:58.923 --> 00:22:00.677
How about we talk about this 
as a community?"

00:22:00.922 --> 00:22:02.947
So, rethinking who's doing the
educating,

00:22:03.749 --> 00:22:04.745
who's doing the training.

00:22:05.957 --> 00:22:07.011
And if there should be really,

00:22:07.213 --> 00:22:09.009
a training or a group growth.

00:22:09.854 --> 00:22:10.492
So, (John sniffs)

00:22:12.047 --> 00:22:13.881
We don't need to really
understand this a whole lot.

00:22:13.881 --> 00:22:15.468
This is the basis of my thesis.

00:22:15.468 --> 00:22:18.924
But, understanding complexity 
and connectedness.

00:22:19.287 --> 00:22:22.087
Understanding that there's 
these causes

00:22:22.439 --> 00:22:23.810
that are not directly apparent.

00:22:23.810 --> 00:22:25.838
That there's causes
that have occurred over time

00:22:25.838 --> 00:22:28.518
that might be still
impacting from history.

00:22:29.941 --> 00:22:30.816
Causes like,

00:22:31.409 --> 00:22:33.027
which I'll go into 
in just a second,

00:22:33.027 --> 00:22:34.984
but just that 
it's really complex.

00:22:35.251 --> 00:22:36.286
That you can't really say,

00:22:36.286 --> 00:22:38.059
"Well, these people that are
living there right now,

00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:39.137
they're cutting down the trees.

00:22:39.137 --> 00:22:40.884
They're the problem. 
We need to educate them."

00:22:42.090 --> 00:22:44.282
Goes back to that learning
more about our own history.

00:22:44.691 --> 00:22:45.636
History of connection.

00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:49.731
So, this is a cycle that, 
by working with local people,

00:22:49.731 --> 00:22:50.880
we came up with this.

00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:53.120
I, from research, 
came up with some things.

00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:54.800
Went to the country, 
talked about it, talked to them.

00:22:54.800 --> 00:22:56.946
Was like, 'Hey, 
is this what you're seeing?'

00:22:57.422 --> 00:22:58.741
And they were like, 
'This, this, yes,

00:22:58.741 --> 00:23:00.321
this, no, this, heck no.'

00:23:00.656 --> 00:23:02.800
And then adjusting 
all of those.

00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:04.240
And then bring back.

00:23:04.410 --> 00:23:05.920
And then, 'this is 
the new model that I have.

00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:06.880
Is this what you think?'

00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.465
And they're like,
'Yeah, it looks a lot better.'

00:23:08.465 --> 00:23:09.974
That's what my focus groups 
were about.

00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.615
So, does poverty, illness, 
and hunger

00:23:12.615 --> 00:23:14.515
leading to the need to deforest

00:23:14.756 --> 00:23:16.859
leading for charcoal use 
and timber,

00:23:17.087 --> 00:23:18.177
leading to soil erosion,

00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.875
leading to more degradation,
leading to poor crop yields,

00:23:20.990 --> 00:23:22.484
disaster vulnerability,

00:23:22.484 --> 00:23:24.448
leading to more poverty, 
leading to this cycle.

00:23:24.890 --> 00:23:25.760
So, it is a cycle.

00:23:25.760 --> 00:23:27.534
I call this the
"pwoblèm pyebwa" cycle,

00:23:27.534 --> 00:23:28.755
which is the
"tree problem" cycle.

00:23:30.123 --> 00:23:31.444
And then I've identified

00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.732
factors that initiated this.

00:23:33.732 --> 00:23:35.308
A loss of 
indigenous stewardship

00:23:35.308 --> 00:23:37.365
when all of the million,

00:23:37.365 --> 00:23:39.684
at least, people on
the island were killed

00:23:39.684 --> 00:23:42.480
through mainly disease, 
some slaughter, initially.

00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:45.207
So the people that best knew,
through generations,

00:23:45.207 --> 00:23:47.040
how to really work this land 
were gone

00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:48.065
'cause a lot of the species

00:23:48.065 --> 00:23:49.584
that they worked with 
were endemic.

00:23:50.082 --> 00:23:51.150
They're not on other islands.

00:23:52.781 --> 00:23:54.296
Sugarcane plantations.

00:23:54.512 --> 00:23:58.388
When the United States came
and occupied the land,

00:23:58.388 --> 00:23:59.927
they said that,
'Okay, you're doing it wrong.

00:23:59.927 --> 00:24:02.000
We need to put a whole bunch of
sugar plantations here.'

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:02.705
So when that occurs,

00:24:02.705 --> 00:24:04.605
you deforest 
a whole lot of land.

00:24:05.060 --> 00:24:07.411
Timber exportation, 
mahogany deaths,

00:24:07.411 --> 00:24:08.176
that sort of thing.

00:24:09.894 --> 00:24:11.669
Post-independence 
foreign relations,

00:24:11.669 --> 00:24:13.705
the fact that, after Haiti

00:24:13.705 --> 00:24:15.018
became its own nation,

00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:17.760
nobody wanted 
to trade with them.

00:24:17.760 --> 00:24:19.440
They refused to help them 
in any way.

00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:21.310
They refused to trade with them
because they thought

00:24:21.310 --> 00:24:23.105
black people should not be able 
to rule themselves

00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.699
and they wanted to make that 
a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:24:27.624 --> 00:24:30.000
And then the foreign occupation
that we talked

00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:30.880
a little bit about.

00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.156
So, if you see from what we
looked at

00:24:32.156 --> 00:24:33.773
in the very beginning
with those numbers,

00:24:33.773 --> 00:24:37.035
most of this deforestation 
came before this generation,

00:24:37.035 --> 00:24:38.219
before the way of living

00:24:38.219 --> 00:24:39.323
that is currently there.

00:24:40.059 --> 00:24:42.345
So, that were factors that
initiated this cycle.

00:24:44.582 --> 00:24:46.547
And then there's factors that 
catalyzed this cycle.

00:24:47.413 --> 00:24:48.471
Climate variability.

00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:49.463
The number one reason

00:24:49.463 --> 00:24:50.873
people told me 
they cut down trees was

00:24:50.873 --> 00:24:53.120
"lapli pwoblèm pyebwae"   
the rain doesn't fall.

00:24:53.120 --> 00:24:54.592
And they used that as a,
kind of a

00:24:54.592 --> 00:24:56.090
whole overarching theme

00:24:56.451 --> 00:25:00.565
for climate variability in
general—changing amounts

00:25:00.565 --> 00:25:02.622
of rainfall, 
when the rainfall occurs,

00:25:02.838 --> 00:25:03.978
leading to them,

00:25:04.572 --> 00:25:07.120
lots of little bugs coming up
and eating their shallots.

00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:09.596
I've told people this before,
but they call these

00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:12.598
shallot-eating grubs AIDS

00:25:12.904 --> 00:25:14.152
'cause they are the worst,

00:25:14.276 --> 00:25:15.674
is what I've been told.

00:25:15.674 --> 00:25:17.434
So, they told me that

00:25:18.080 --> 00:25:19.602
AIDS, AIDS, AIDS is a problem.

00:25:19.602 --> 00:25:21.680
And there's a little
translation error there.

00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:23.680
I was like, "AIDS? I don't
really understand that."

00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:25.883
And they're like, "Yeah, AIDS.
They're going in,

00:25:25.883 --> 00:25:28.694
they're eating our shallots."
And stuff like that, so.

00:25:30.382 --> 00:25:34.125
There was a lot of funny things 
like that going on, and-

00:25:35.361 --> 00:25:36.712
Natural disasters.

00:25:37.008 --> 00:25:40.491
When a big hurricane comes, 
it wipes out a bunch of trees.

00:25:40.491 --> 00:25:42.416
It wipes out a bunch of

00:25:43.483 --> 00:25:44.613
people, unfortunately.

00:25:45.010 --> 00:25:46.239
And you see in Haiti this

00:25:46.527 --> 00:25:48.641
susceptibility to 
natural disasters.

00:25:49.148 --> 00:25:52.001
That a lot of people argue 
is not their own issue,

00:25:52.001 --> 00:25:54.240
that came about from
outsiders.

00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:57.356
The earthquakes in

00:25:58.020 --> 00:26:00.197
2010, terrible, right?

00:26:00.197 --> 00:26:01.607
Hundreds
of thousands of people died,

00:26:01.607 --> 00:26:03.454
depending on who you ask,
300,000.

00:26:05.797 --> 00:26:06.692
And yet,

00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:08.939
there were five other 
earthquakes

00:26:08.939 --> 00:26:10.088
of that magnitude that year.

00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:13.397
But it was the most 
devastating for

00:26:13.397 --> 00:26:14.640
hundreds and hundreds of years.

00:26:15.744 --> 00:26:17.837
There was a Hurricane Jeanne,

00:26:17.837 --> 00:26:18.913
a lot of people talked about.

00:26:19.675 --> 00:26:22.301
Was a class four hurricane. 
It hit the Dominican Republic.

00:26:22.314 --> 00:26:23.881
Two people died 
in the Dominican Republic,

00:26:24.690 --> 00:26:28.064
400 people in one town 
died in Haiti.

00:26:28.715 --> 00:26:30.545
And so why is it that they're
so vulnerable?

00:26:30.649 --> 00:26:32.922
And so a lot of this has 
to do with the trees.

00:26:32.922 --> 00:26:34.020
It all comes full circle.

00:26:34.020 --> 00:26:35.333
I'm talking about this
complexity.

00:26:35.709 --> 00:26:37.673
It comes back to the fact 
that it's really complex.

00:26:37.673 --> 00:26:39.746
And if you want to address 
the issue of reforestation,

00:26:39.956 --> 00:26:41.076
you have to talk to local people

00:26:41.076 --> 00:26:41.976
and talk about their history.

00:26:43.513 --> 00:26:45.673
Water tenure and access
is very big.

00:26:45.673 --> 00:26:47.681
Not being able to get 
enough water to plant trees

00:26:47.681 --> 00:26:48.610
even if they want to.

00:26:48.852 --> 00:26:51.643
Dependency on
outside food sources,

00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:54.064
making those prices change

00:26:54.724 --> 00:26:55.440
for their crops.

00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.126
Population growth is 
definitely something.

00:26:59.414 --> 00:27:01.189
Commoditization 
of goods and services,

00:27:01.189 --> 00:27:02.537
things that they used to just

00:27:02.537 --> 00:27:04.960
make or get off the land, 
now they pay for.

00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.348
Medicine, education, food.

00:27:08.344 --> 00:27:10.026
And then Haiti's 
stock market crash,

00:27:10.026 --> 00:27:11.225
what they call it,

00:27:11.412 --> 00:27:13.238
when the pigs were eradicated
in the country.

00:27:13.238 --> 00:27:15.721
'Cause that was a method 
they have of,

00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:17.809
keeping some money

00:27:17.921 --> 00:27:19.205
in case somebody got sick,

00:27:19.205 --> 00:27:20.454
they would kill a pig 
and sell it.

00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.633
It's very common in a lot
of different cultures.

00:27:22.772 --> 00:27:25.200
Once the pigs were all gone, 
all they had was trees, so.

00:27:27.349 --> 00:27:30.002
And then I argue for a
fundamental mindset shift.

00:27:30.002 --> 00:27:31.064
Not just the band-aid.

00:27:31.064 --> 00:27:32.911
Not just let's do a couple 
interviews

00:27:32.911 --> 00:27:33.804
and then do what we want to do.

00:27:33.804 --> 00:27:35.810
A fundamental mindset shift

00:27:35.810 --> 00:27:37.314
on local knowledge 
and local culture.

00:27:37.786 --> 00:27:41.195
That just like our knowledge 
that we told them

00:27:41.195 --> 00:27:43.308
monocrops are great, 
just as one example,

00:27:43.430 --> 00:27:45.309
that changes what
we understand about that.

00:27:45.663 --> 00:27:48.000
Local knowledge has
been based in local culture,

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.076
based in the local environment

00:27:49.076 --> 00:27:49.992
for a very long time.

00:27:49.992 --> 00:27:51.780
And it might change too,

00:27:51.780 --> 00:27:53.088
or it might be 
the correct things.

00:27:53.088 --> 00:27:55.419
So, valuing that, valuing that

00:27:55.419 --> 00:27:56.181
these people

00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:58.736
have lived here a lot longer
than we do.

00:27:58.736 --> 00:28:00.221
And if we work in 20 different 
countries

00:28:00.221 --> 00:28:01.922
and do reforestation projects 
in each,

00:28:01.922 --> 00:28:04.069
we might not know about
the specific pieces, so.

00:28:04.681 --> 00:28:07.093
This is just one example 
from Alma, a great woman

00:28:07.093 --> 00:28:10.443
who knows a lot about medicinal 
and spiritual uses of trees.

00:28:10.714 --> 00:28:11.928
'If there are no trees 
in the country,

00:28:11.928 --> 00:28:12.947
then I'm already dead.

00:28:12.950 --> 00:28:16.169
I need trees to help my 
children survive.'

00:28:17.032 --> 00:28:19.887
Medicine. Shade. 
'Cause it was really hot.

00:28:19.887 --> 00:28:21.759
I thought that was just a 
superficial thing to begin with,

00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:23.195
but they really need it 
for shade.

00:28:24.344 --> 00:28:27.060
For preserving water sources,
for bringing the rains,

00:28:27.735 --> 00:28:29.310
for protection 
against evil spirits.

00:28:29.310 --> 00:28:31.411
That's their local knowledge 
and we need to respect that.

00:28:32.118 --> 00:28:34.901
And then this is Poppy 
standing up and saying,

00:28:34.901 --> 00:28:35.932
"lapli pwoblèm pyebwae"

00:28:36.281 --> 00:28:37.919
and just repeating it over
and over again

00:28:37.919 --> 00:28:39.935
when we're trying to talk about 
when different NGOs are saying,

00:28:39.935 --> 00:28:41.390
maybe we should do
this and this and this.

00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:42.966
He's talking about the 
issue is the rain.

00:28:43.209 --> 00:28:44.636
It's not that we don't know
about the trees.

00:28:45.322 --> 00:28:48.274
So, couple more

00:28:48.663 --> 00:28:51.075
contributions of my research
and my thesis.

00:28:51.082 --> 00:28:55.667
If you guys want to learn more, 
I have my e-mail up here,

00:28:55.777 --> 00:28:57.387
at the end and I can send 
you my thesis.

00:28:57.387 --> 00:28:59.962
It's very long, 100 pages. 
Don't read it all.

00:28:59.962 --> 00:29:01.254
Read the abstract, 
and whatever you want.

00:29:01.349 --> 00:29:04.242
But, I provide this model

00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:06.695
called the 
"Pwoblem Pyebwa Model"

00:29:06.695 --> 00:29:07.814
and it puts that,

00:29:09.453 --> 00:29:10.799
let's see if I can do this.

00:29:11.311 --> 00:29:12.964
Puts this in a 
historical context.

00:29:13.350 --> 00:29:14.595
And it looks very crazy.

00:29:14.741 --> 00:29:15.452
And it looks,

00:29:15.697 --> 00:29:17.011
lots of arrows going everywhere.

00:29:17.011 --> 00:29:18.427
Probably could have made 
it a lot simpler.

00:29:18.594 --> 00:29:21.185
But I wanted to get at that 
complexity and it looks at,

00:29:21.185 --> 00:29:22.153
on one side.

00:29:22.442 --> 00:29:24.173
What events were happening 
through history,

00:29:24.173 --> 00:29:25.785
and on one side, 
how much deforestation

00:29:25.785 --> 00:29:26.488
has occurred,

00:29:26.704 --> 00:29:27.874
and it links them together.

00:29:28.523 --> 00:29:30.880
It links together how it's not
just the current population,

00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:32.723
how it's this history of
systemic causes.

00:29:33.849 --> 00:29:34.855
So that's one thing I provide,

00:29:34.855 --> 00:29:36.255
and I provide that 
as a-

00:29:37.341 --> 00:29:38.515
an education tool 
and get this,

00:29:38.515 --> 00:29:40.121
this is going to blow 
everybody's mind,

00:29:40.265 --> 00:29:41.774
not to educate the local people,

00:29:42.167 --> 00:29:44.942
but to educate the people
coming into the country,

00:29:45.481 --> 00:29:46.798
about what's going on 
in the country.

00:29:47.512 --> 00:29:50.094
And so, even I go further than

00:29:50.094 --> 00:29:51.234
just a little bit 
of collaboration,

00:29:51.234 --> 00:29:52.812
but actually,
maybe who's being taught

00:29:52.812 --> 00:29:54.343
might need to be those people 
that have worked

00:29:54.343 --> 00:29:55.390
in 20 different countries,

00:29:55.708 --> 00:29:57.155
don't know anything
about the local country.

00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:00.661
And so, also,

00:30:00.943 --> 00:30:03.621
local knowledge on trees 
and different uses.

00:30:03.621 --> 00:30:05.529
I broke down a lot of 
different tree species,

00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:06.897
different types of tree species,

00:30:06.897 --> 00:30:09.071
and what they're used for, 
so that can be used

00:30:09.071 --> 00:30:09.976
in project planning,

00:30:09.976 --> 00:30:11.715
understanding that 
these tree species,

00:30:12.012 --> 00:30:13.334
they like to build
along the road.

00:30:13.760 --> 00:30:16.068
So don't take something 
that we have,

00:30:16.273 --> 00:30:17.752
we found in Asia, 
worked pretty well,

00:30:17.752 --> 00:30:19.040
and put that along
the roadsides.

00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:21.047
Use what they know 
and what they're likely to use.

00:30:22.584 --> 00:30:24.525
And then, even the idea of-

00:30:25.897 --> 00:30:26.978
a research process

00:30:26.978 --> 00:30:28.134
with research partners.

00:30:28.134 --> 00:30:30.172
So this research that I did,

00:30:30.172 --> 00:30:31.180
I argue, was different

00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:33.358
because I treated the 
local people as partners

00:30:33.358 --> 00:30:36.434
in the research, 
not as people

00:30:36.434 --> 00:30:37.653
that were participants

00:30:39.380 --> 00:30:40.287
or subjects,

00:30:41.033 --> 00:30:42.897
which has all different
connotations but,

00:30:43.381 --> 00:30:45.556
people that know more 
about it than I do.

00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.061
And whose names 
should be up here,

00:30:48.499 --> 00:30:49.363
probably instead of mine

00:30:49.363 --> 00:30:51.219
because they taught me 
on this information.

00:30:51.219 --> 00:30:53.160
I'm just synthesizing it and
presenting it

00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:54.279
to people in the United States.

00:30:55.870 --> 00:30:58.278
And this Tet ansanm
Collaborative Conservation.

00:30:58.880 --> 00:30:59.446
So,

00:31:01.221 --> 00:31:02.371
So I think I,

00:31:02.371 --> 00:31:05.078
did fly though that 
a little bit 'cause, okay.

00:31:06.565 --> 00:31:07.258
Well,

00:31:08.102 --> 00:31:09.200
that's okay.

00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:10.559
Yeah, time for questions.

00:31:10.560 --> 00:31:11.680
I'd love to have a dialogue.

00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:13.672
Sorry, I planned on that going 
a bit longer.

00:31:13.672 --> 00:31:14.466
I could lecture more,

00:31:14.466 --> 00:31:16.044
in a little bit 
if you guys want to, so.

00:31:16.800 --> 00:31:19.725
Questions about working 
Tet ansanm?

00:31:20.427 --> 00:31:21.805
Working with heads together.

00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:23.316
Yeah.

00:31:23.316 --> 00:31:27.301
(unintelligible)

00:31:27.669 --> 00:31:28.203
Mmhmm.

00:31:28.203 --> 00:31:41.466
(unintelligible)

00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:42.640
Definitely.

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:43.754
Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:43.754 --> 00:31:45.267
I'm sorry if I 
misrepresented that

00:31:45.267 --> 00:31:46.434
'cause that's more along

00:31:46.434 --> 00:31:47.264
what I was talking about.

00:31:47.329 --> 00:31:50.480
And that's definitely 
a good point, is that

00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:55.045
the main thing they were saying
was that day-to-day needs

00:31:55.045 --> 00:31:56.377
were just ignored completely.

00:31:56.377 --> 00:31:59.344
And so the idea is that
if you have a project

00:31:59.344 --> 00:32:01.284
that says we're going to put 
a bunch of trees over here

00:32:01.638 --> 00:32:03.600
and you can't touch them 
for 50 years,

00:32:04.425 --> 00:32:05.695
that those look pretty enticing

00:32:05.695 --> 00:32:07.073
when people in your family
are dying

00:32:07.073 --> 00:32:08.061
or when your crops are failing.

00:32:08.061 --> 00:32:09.040
That sort of thing.

00:32:09.040 --> 00:32:09.920
So what,

00:32:10.021 --> 00:32:13.247
the local people were saying 
was to bring more of,

00:32:13.247 --> 00:32:14.029
we can have that,

00:32:14.029 --> 00:32:15.667
but some of the trees 
we're allowed to cut down

00:32:15.667 --> 00:32:17.680
or we can plant crops 
underneath them so that

00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:19.360
land isn't just lost for 
that amount of time.

00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:20.615
But that's definitely
important, is that

00:32:20.956 --> 00:32:23.150
in ecological restoration,

00:32:23.605 --> 00:32:24.640
and perhaps 
this is something that

00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:26.702
scientific knowledge 
does bring to the table.

00:32:26.702 --> 00:32:28.633
I'm not saying scientific
knowledge is irrelevant,

00:32:29.633 --> 00:32:32.789
is that it is a long-term 
look at it is needed for sure.

00:32:34.428 --> 00:32:34.969
Cool.

00:32:35.965 --> 00:32:38.085
Anybody else? Yeah.
Sorry.

00:32:38.085 --> 00:32:44.960
(unintelligible)

00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:45.470
Yeah.

00:32:47.252 --> 00:32:48.551
That's a very good question.

00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:51.253
A lot of different reasons.

00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:54.615
A big part of it is the
deforestation itself.

00:32:55.120 --> 00:32:58.112
Not necessarily the earthquake,
but when you see hurricanes,

00:32:58.112 --> 00:33:01.096
one of the main uses 
people say in Haiti

00:33:01.096 --> 00:33:03.575
for having trees is that 
it protects you from hurricanes.

00:33:04.106 --> 00:33:05.267
Natural wind blocking,

00:33:05.947 --> 00:33:08.194
natural holding of soil

00:33:08.194 --> 00:33:09.521
if a hurricane does occur.

00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:11.454
So if that hurricane comes in

00:33:11.454 --> 00:33:13.227
and wipes out all the soil 
on your land,

00:33:13.227 --> 00:33:15.200
for the next few years,

00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.544
that land is
irrelevant, obsolete.

00:33:17.992 --> 00:33:19.035
And so that's a big part of it,

00:33:19.035 --> 00:33:20.500
is having these 
blockades of trees.

00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:22.911
We're actually going to do
something in class

00:33:22.911 --> 00:33:25.520
where we do a hands-on
experiment about what happens

00:33:25.520 --> 00:33:26.480
when you have less trees.

00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:27.574
So, it'll be a little bit 
different than me

00:33:27.574 --> 00:33:28.809
just lecturing to you guys.

00:33:29.515 --> 00:33:30.938
In a couple of days, 
on Tuesday.

00:33:32.560 --> 00:33:33.264
But,

00:33:33.372 --> 00:33:34.549
yeah, that's a big part of it.

00:33:35.040 --> 00:33:36.747
The other part of it is

00:33:37.317 --> 00:33:38.171
the-

00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:40.225
lack of some infrastructure

00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:43.225
coordination in Port-au-Prince.

00:33:43.225 --> 00:33:46.113
So, if you're talking about 
the earthquake,

00:33:46.735 --> 00:33:48.212
a big part of that is,

00:33:48.800 --> 00:33:50.508
the local government,

00:33:51.578 --> 00:33:53.213
while corrupt at times,

00:33:53.213 --> 00:33:54.822
has not been 
supported throughout history.

00:33:55.040 --> 00:33:56.725
It's been undermined 
again and again

00:33:56.725 --> 00:33:57.980
as part of this neocolonialism

00:33:57.980 --> 00:34:02.158
is that 1% of the money 
that went to Haiti

00:34:02.158 --> 00:34:03.628
out of the billions
and billions of dollars

00:34:03.628 --> 00:34:04.646
actually went to the government.

00:34:05.768 --> 00:34:06.821
And so, 
if you take that into history,

00:34:06.821 --> 00:34:07.781
that's not new.

00:34:07.781 --> 00:34:08.763
That's a trend 
throughout history.

00:34:08.763 --> 00:34:09.711
So, if you have a government

00:34:10.015 --> 00:34:11.307
that hasn't 
been able to function,

00:34:12.234 --> 00:34:13.687
yes, corruption has occurred,

00:34:13.687 --> 00:34:15.614
but who put those corrupt 
leaders in power?

00:34:15.942 --> 00:34:17.590
People that came in, 
occupied the country

00:34:17.590 --> 00:34:18.421
for 20 years,

00:34:18.479 --> 00:34:20.581
and then said, 
'Okay, you guys

00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:22.708
are doing the kind of things 
we want you to do,

00:34:22.708 --> 00:34:23.497
so you're in power.'

00:34:25.120 --> 00:34:29.783
So, this history of corruption,
not necessarily locally caused,

00:34:30.082 --> 00:34:32.400
leads to less money being put
into infrastructure.

00:34:32.547 --> 00:34:34.241
And if there's less money into
infrastructure,

00:34:35.620 --> 00:34:37.462
people build their own houses

00:34:37.462 --> 00:34:39.025
out of materials that they have.

00:34:39.025 --> 00:34:40.398
And these are very heavy 
concrete bricks.

00:34:40.398 --> 00:34:42.058
So, at the most immediate level,

00:34:42.458 --> 00:34:44.106
it was the materials
that they used,

00:34:44.106 --> 00:34:45.600
how those were used.

00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:46.946
No building codes, 
which comes from

00:34:46.946 --> 00:34:47.814
governmental stuff.

00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:50.220
No support systems,

00:34:50.220 --> 00:34:51.172
no readily,

00:34:51.468 --> 00:34:52.609
like after the earthquake,

00:34:52.609 --> 00:34:54.593
there was still a big delay 
before stuff

00:34:54.593 --> 00:34:56.229
actually started to happen to,

00:34:57.040 --> 00:34:58.080
to make a difference there.

00:34:58.080 --> 00:35:00.805
I was there 
for three days of chaos,

00:35:00.805 --> 00:35:02.769
not in the sense of violence, 
not in the sense of

00:35:02.769 --> 00:35:04.309
the people were actually 
very peaceful.

00:35:04.309 --> 00:35:06.965
People after that, 
which I was floored by.

00:35:08.074 --> 00:35:09.662
But not much was getting done.

00:35:09.662 --> 00:35:12.894
There was people 
that were dying,

00:35:12.894 --> 00:35:14.427
and having their legs
amputated

00:35:14.427 --> 00:35:17.440
without anything but aspirin 
to help with it.

00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:19.071
And so, you're thinking, 
in this day and age,

00:35:19.337 --> 00:35:22.635
in three days, 
you know how does it take

00:35:22.635 --> 00:35:23.600
three days to get there?

00:35:23.600 --> 00:35:25.037
And so, a big part of that is

00:35:26.157 --> 00:35:27.120
the local government.

00:35:27.120 --> 00:35:28.310
A big part of that is,

00:35:29.600 --> 00:35:33.020
why is it that we can go and
deploy in one day

00:35:33.020 --> 00:35:33.854
a military strike,

00:35:34.085 --> 00:35:36.792
but it takes us three days 
to get antibiotics

00:35:36.792 --> 00:35:37.724
to a different country,

00:35:37.724 --> 00:35:39.777
which is a different 
question you could ask.

00:35:40.389 --> 00:35:41.455
Those are a couple of things.

00:35:42.314 --> 00:35:44.008
It's unfortunately, 
not very simple.

00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:45.591
It's very complex.

00:35:47.155 --> 00:35:50.438
And part of it also is
the long-term impacts

00:35:50.438 --> 00:35:53.859
of that is that there's 
not a sort of system

00:35:53.859 --> 00:35:55.916
that people have
to fall back on,

00:35:55.916 --> 00:35:57.768
like the pigs, like the trees, 
that sort of thing.

00:35:57.768 --> 00:35:59.580
So if something happens wrong
to us,

00:35:59.580 --> 00:36:02.539
we have insurance, 
we have places we can go,

00:36:02.539 --> 00:36:04.000
we have family members 
that have money

00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.425
that can give us money to
support us.

00:36:05.425 --> 00:36:07.357
That might not be the case
in the country.

00:36:07.357 --> 00:36:11.556
(unintelligible)

00:36:11.591 --> 00:36:13.199
I'm talking about a couple
different things.

00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:14.088
So, there was the-

00:36:14.088 --> 00:36:14.825
(unintelligible)

00:36:14.825 --> 00:36:16.494
I was there for the earthquake.
Yeah.

00:36:16.494 --> 00:36:18.094
[SPEAKER ONE] Were you 
there during it?

00:36:18.094 --> 00:36:19.760
[JOHN MCGREEVY] Yes. Yeah.

00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:20.586
So, I in a,

00:36:20.586 --> 00:36:22.797
I was out in the 
central part of the country,

00:36:23.289 --> 00:36:23.925
and then,

00:36:23.934 --> 00:36:24.591
and I was doing

00:36:25.120 --> 00:36:26.876
work on solar cookers, and,

00:36:27.298 --> 00:36:28.664
kind of, 
when I look back on it,

00:36:28.664 --> 00:36:30.322
I'm like, oh gosh, what
was I doing?

00:36:30.322 --> 00:36:31.528
But, you learn.

00:36:32.264 --> 00:36:33.917
And so, I was an undergrad.

00:36:34.242 --> 00:36:36.489
And then, after it happened,

00:36:36.489 --> 00:36:38.052
I went into the city 
the next day

00:36:38.052 --> 00:36:39.520
and was there for eight days.

00:36:39.708 --> 00:36:42.834
So, I got to see very few
white people there.

00:36:42.834 --> 00:36:44.657
So, I got to see, 
or blondes, as they call them,

00:36:44.951 --> 00:36:47.397
so I got to see from ground zero

00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:49.484
all the way up 
eight days afterwards

00:36:49.484 --> 00:36:50.834
what it actually looked like.

00:36:52.281 --> 00:36:56.080
And in those first few days, 
I was amazed by the way that

00:36:56.080 --> 00:36:59.692
local people bonded together,
created their own hierarchies,

00:36:59.692 --> 00:37:00.990
created their own

00:37:01.372 --> 00:37:03.084
different people to do
different things,

00:37:03.600 --> 00:37:05.923
which were immediately, 
when other people came in,

00:37:05.923 --> 00:37:07.339
instead of working 
with those communities

00:37:07.339 --> 00:37:09.410
that knew how to get stuff 
around and this

00:37:09.410 --> 00:37:11.600
lack of infrastructure, 
was totally

00:37:11.776 --> 00:37:14.000
wiped out and said, 'Okay, 
we're gonna take control now.'

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.795
So, and then, four days later,

00:37:17.942 --> 00:37:18.982
they came to us anthropologists

00:37:19.337 --> 00:37:22.456
and us people and said, 
'We're really messing up,

00:37:22.456 --> 00:37:23.608
and we need somebody's help.'

00:37:23.608 --> 00:37:25.809
We have no idea how to
transport stuff in this country.

00:37:25.809 --> 00:37:28.122
We have no idea how to 
work with these people.

00:37:28.122 --> 00:37:29.482
So that's when 
they started to look at

00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:30.799
smaller NGOs,

00:37:30.799 --> 00:37:32.232
people that have been there 
for 12 years.

00:37:32.463 --> 00:37:33.333
That sort of thing.

00:37:33.812 --> 00:37:35.311
So, yeah.

00:37:36.175 --> 00:37:36.710
Yeah.

00:37:36.710 --> 00:37:50.007
(unintelligible)

00:37:50.282 --> 00:37:51.360
Okay so,

00:37:51.618 --> 00:37:52.987
we're talking about 
what caused them

00:37:52.987 --> 00:37:54.517
or what their impacts are?

00:37:56.533 --> 00:37:57.440
Yeah, that's

00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:58.972
that was another big part 
of my research,

00:37:58.972 --> 00:38:00.968
was what the impacts

00:38:00.968 --> 00:38:02.640
of not having trees
on your land are.

00:38:02.640 --> 00:38:05.042
And that goes a lot back to
what are the uses of trees.

00:38:06.307 --> 00:38:08.960
A big one they talked about was
keeping soil on the land.

00:38:09.038 --> 00:38:10.160
There's are many stats 
out there.

00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:12.643
I don't know right offhand
about how much soil

00:38:12.643 --> 00:38:14.658
is lost every year, 
and it's an incredible amount.

00:38:15.204 --> 00:38:16.400
And so, people that

00:38:16.586 --> 00:38:18.824
in the rural areas that live a
subsistence lifestyle,

00:38:18.824 --> 00:38:20.076
maybe sell some things,

00:38:21.461 --> 00:38:23.929
that is a big deal when their
soil erosion goes away.

00:38:24.129 --> 00:38:25.646
That leads to 
their quality of life.

00:38:26.006 --> 00:38:29.100
And so, a big part of it 
is soil erosion.

00:38:30.191 --> 00:38:31.578
A big part of it is

00:38:31.578 --> 00:38:33.014
the things they get 
from the trees.

00:38:33.014 --> 00:38:37.306
So trees they use for different
food sources, mangoes, are huge.

00:38:37.306 --> 00:38:40.188
there are an incredible amount
of mangoes in the country.

00:38:40.188 --> 00:38:41.840
First day that I 
was in the country,

00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:42.785
they were like, 
'Well, we don't have

00:38:42.785 --> 00:38:44.474
a lot of food to give you, 
but do you like mangoes?'

00:38:44.474 --> 00:38:46.080
I had never had a mango 
before in my life.

00:38:46.080 --> 00:38:47.200
I ate 10 the first day.

00:38:47.200 --> 00:38:48.345
'Cause they had just this huge

00:38:48.640 --> 00:38:52.126
bowl of the ripest, 
juiciest mangoes.

00:38:52.126 --> 00:38:56.320
Over.. 100 varieties 
of mangoes on the island.

00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:56.960
We only see one.

00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:58.727
We only see mango francis,
mainly.

00:38:59.881 --> 00:39:00.648
And they're all edible.

00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:04.975
Cachiman, and corossol and
passion fruit,

00:39:05.001 --> 00:39:06.041
all different types of foods,

00:39:06.041 --> 00:39:07.710
so when they lose trees,

00:39:07.715 --> 00:39:10.559
they oftentimes don't just
lose a tree.

00:39:10.560 --> 00:39:11.221
Like we would say,

00:39:11.221 --> 00:39:13.151
'Oh, that's a pretty oak tree 
that, or on our oval.'

00:39:13.151 --> 00:39:15.325
We have trees, 
they lose resources.

00:39:15.455 --> 00:39:18.402
They lose a substitute of food.

00:39:18.402 --> 00:39:21.003
They lose vitamins, they lose
minerals, that sort of thing.

00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:23.343
That we now are trying to,

00:39:23.934 --> 00:39:25.394
instead of dealing 
with that issue,

00:39:25.394 --> 00:39:27.001
we're trying to bring in
food aid,

00:39:27.001 --> 00:39:28.951
which has all different 
sorts of implications.

00:39:30.138 --> 00:39:30.800
That's part of it.

00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:32.720
Another is 
spiritual uses of trees.

00:39:32.720 --> 00:39:34.400
I looked into that as an
anthropologist.

00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:35.656
It's hard to really break
through,

00:39:35.656 --> 00:39:37.559
to get people to talk 
about that because

00:39:37.863 --> 00:39:40.725
they've been talked down to a
lot about how voodoo is evil

00:39:41.529 --> 00:39:44.186
and how voodoo is terrible.

00:39:44.186 --> 00:39:45.389
The more and more I learned
about voodoo,

00:39:45.389 --> 00:39:46.421
the more that I learned that

00:39:46.421 --> 00:39:48.869
it was very similar 
to Native American religions.

00:39:48.891 --> 00:39:52.206
It's just been personified as a
really an evil, evil thing.

00:39:53.040 --> 00:39:55.243
A lot of animism, 
a lot of spirits in the trees.

00:39:55.243 --> 00:39:58.654
And so people believe 
that the Mapou tree,

00:39:58.654 --> 00:40:00.385
which is this huge tree,

00:40:00.795 --> 00:40:01.471
that'd be crazy.

00:40:01.471 --> 00:40:02.536
You walk through

00:40:03.022 --> 00:40:03.852
the middle of nowhere.

00:40:03.852 --> 00:40:04.914
There's no trees, no trees.

00:40:04.914 --> 00:40:08.160
And then there's a tree that I
cannot grab my arms around.

00:40:08.160 --> 00:40:09.680
I'm like, 
'What's that tree there?'

00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:10.693
And we're like, 
'Well, evil spirits

00:40:10.693 --> 00:40:11.503
live in that tree.'

00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:14.042
I initially wanted my thesis to
be about,

00:40:14.042 --> 00:40:15.627
'Well, why don't we plant 
more Mapou trees?'

00:40:15.872 --> 00:40:17.216
Then I learned that they're 
not goodfor anything.

00:40:17.428 --> 00:40:19.182
So which came first, 
the chicken or the egg?

00:40:19.182 --> 00:40:20.510
The beliefs about their spirits

00:40:20.510 --> 00:40:21.638
living in there 
or the fact that

00:40:21.638 --> 00:40:23.230
they can't be used 
for really anything?

00:40:23.230 --> 00:40:26.211
Don't know, 
but those are just a couple.

00:40:26.299 --> 00:40:27.302
They plant trees

00:40:27.613 --> 00:40:29.106
next to sources of water,

00:40:29.106 --> 00:40:30.193
all along canals.

00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:31.687
You'll have trees.

00:40:32.523 --> 00:40:35.038
And so that prevents
evaporation from occurring

00:40:35.038 --> 00:40:36.708
so their water can get 
to their crop lands.

00:40:37.816 --> 00:40:38.652
It's a lot of different,

00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:41.920
The number one thing, though,
that they said again and again

00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:42.506
was shade.

00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.172
Mainly because this was 
a really hot region.

00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:48.210
Oh, perfect picture.

00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:51.360
Hiking for miles 
and miles and miles.

00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:53.215
And then you get to this one
gayak tree,

00:40:53.215 --> 00:40:54.422
which is a hardwood tree.

00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.172
It's actually called
(unintelligible) to them

00:40:57.172 --> 00:40:58.699
which is 'God's Tree'

00:40:59.057 --> 00:41:01.056
'cause it's so many uses.
It's three times harder

00:41:01.056 --> 00:41:03.065
than any other charcoal
they can make out of it.

00:41:04.635 --> 00:41:07.505
And so you're there, 
and it's a actually help thing.

00:41:07.606 --> 00:41:09.749
It's a thing that after you
work in your field for hours,

00:41:09.749 --> 00:41:10.677
you go and sit by that.

00:41:10.756 --> 00:41:12.480
So, air conditioning 
for your house.

00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.182
Those are just
a few of the things

00:41:15.362 --> 00:41:16.738
that they use them for, yeah.

00:41:17.279 --> 00:41:18.210
Any questions?
Yeah?

00:41:18.473 --> 00:41:30.072
(unintelligible)

00:41:30.321 --> 00:41:31.020
Oh, me

00:41:31.193 --> 00:41:31.824
in particular?

00:41:32.282 --> 00:41:32.809
Yeah.

00:41:32.809 --> 00:41:37.641
(unintelligible)

00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:38.353
Yeah.

00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.680
It's a shame sometimes

00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:44.564
how distant academia is from
what's actually going on.

00:41:44.564 --> 00:41:46.556
And so, I'll start with that.

00:41:47.291 --> 00:41:50.170
For, what I'm saying is not

00:41:50.170 --> 00:41:51.669
completely new in some of the

00:41:51.669 --> 00:41:54.063
aspects in that 
people in writing

00:41:54.063 --> 00:41:56.325
have been talking about
the need for a little bit more

00:41:56.325 --> 00:41:58.005
collaboration or more 
local knowledge.

00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:00.905
They've been talking about it
more surfacy,

00:42:00.905 --> 00:42:02.686
like we need to know 
what they use

00:42:02.686 --> 00:42:04.451
so that we can implement
our business plan

00:42:04.451 --> 00:42:05.052
on top of that.

00:42:09.746 --> 00:42:10.962
That's shifting a little bit.

00:42:10.962 --> 00:42:13.827
Dr. Gerald Murray 
did a 20-year study

00:42:13.827 --> 00:42:15.818
where he actually, 
for the first time,

00:42:16.335 --> 00:42:18.687
looked at the local 
uses of trees

00:42:18.687 --> 00:42:20.538
and what they needed 
for an income source

00:42:20.538 --> 00:42:22.776
and put it in an income model, 
which was interesting.

00:42:23.954 --> 00:42:25.973
I'm taking that 
next step of saying,

00:42:26.371 --> 00:42:28.645
yes, we do need to work
10 ensemble heads together.

00:42:28.749 --> 00:42:30.396
The hard part is that

00:42:30.396 --> 00:42:32.954
a lot of stakeholders 
on the opposite side,

00:42:33.517 --> 00:42:36.857
that NGOs, 
nonprofits—they're businesses.

00:42:36.857 --> 00:42:37.946
They say nonprofit.

00:42:38.741 --> 00:42:40.160
And in some senses, they are.

00:42:40.160 --> 00:42:42.586
Also, these people 
make salaries.

00:42:42.586 --> 00:42:43.654
And if you're telling them

00:42:43.654 --> 00:42:45.688
that we need to 
decrease the number of NGOs

00:42:45.688 --> 00:42:47.791
or we need to change your role,

00:42:48.803 --> 00:42:50.880
decrease the number
of personnel that are outsiders

00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.082
compared to local, 
there's a money

00:42:53.082 --> 00:42:54.367
real stakeholder there.

00:42:55.492 --> 00:42:56.964
So there is 
some opposition to it.

00:42:57.667 --> 00:43:00.734
It's a lot of why I didn't 
name names of anyone in this.

00:43:02.049 --> 00:43:04.630
And so what I'm proposing,

00:43:04.630 --> 00:43:07.461
and when I do my
doctorate research starting

00:43:07.954 --> 00:43:08.669
in the fall,

00:43:09.520 --> 00:43:11.704
I'm using an applied approach

00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:14.984
to try to implement
some of this training

00:43:15.042 --> 00:43:17.814
of local history to outsiders.

00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:18.800
So I think,

00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:21.594
think that that's a big
starting point to get to.

00:43:21.977 --> 00:43:23.273
'Cause I think in this room a
little bit,

00:43:23.273 --> 00:43:25.128
when I talked about things 
that the United States had done,

00:43:25.128 --> 00:43:26.640
it's like, 'Oh, this

00:43:26.640 --> 00:43:28.078
presents a little bit of a
different picture.'

00:43:28.078 --> 00:43:30.609
So that, I think, 
is where it starts,

00:43:31.040 --> 00:43:33.135
seeing us as not being 
infallible.

00:43:33.758 --> 00:43:36.919
And then from there, I think,

00:43:37.156 --> 00:43:38.287
if you want a really good

00:43:38.287 --> 00:43:40.303
example of how it's been done
in the health field,

00:43:40.304 --> 00:43:42.449
they've had some difficulties, 
but Partners in Health,

00:43:43.309 --> 00:43:45.146
Dr. Paul Farmer, 
'Mountains Beyond Mountains'

00:43:45.146 --> 00:43:46.007
is the book,

00:43:46.478 --> 00:43:48.723
he's done a similar mindset 
where instead of having

00:43:49.487 --> 00:43:52.232
4,000 employees in the country,

00:43:52.232 --> 00:43:54.148
well, for example, 
Red Cross had

00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.818
4 or 10 employees 
in the country before

00:43:58.640 --> 00:43:59.600
the earthquake happened.

00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:01.223
After the earthquake happened,
they had 4,000.

00:44:02.334 --> 00:44:03.649
And they had 
the majority of the money.

00:44:05.217 --> 00:44:07.348
But then on the other end of
the spectrum,

00:44:07.348 --> 00:44:11.424
there's Partners in Health 
who have 4 to 10 outsiders

00:44:11.424 --> 00:44:15.281
working there and then 
the 400 local employees.

00:44:15.548 --> 00:44:17.543
So shifting who gets the money,
because

00:44:17.868 --> 00:44:19.929
to be honest, Americans want a
lot more money

00:44:19.929 --> 00:44:21.072
than those people want too.

00:44:21.288 --> 00:44:23.727
So if you hire more people, 
that's a huge step in that.

00:44:26.128 --> 00:44:26.868
Does that answer some of it?

00:44:27.482 --> 00:44:28.736
So, any other questions?

00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:30.491
Did you have a different idea
with that question?

00:44:30.491 --> 00:44:34.205
(unintelligible)

00:44:34.240 --> 00:44:34.745
Yeah.

00:44:35.352 --> 00:44:36.893
What's being applied right now?

00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:39.805
From me? Not much.

00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:44.297
I am going to Haiti
in May and starting,

00:44:44.636 --> 00:44:46.352
and starting, 
we talked about,

00:44:46.511 --> 00:44:47.529
Kim talked about a little bit,

00:44:47.631 --> 00:44:50.160
a parish-to-parish 
twinning program

00:44:50.160 --> 00:44:51.448
between Catholic churches.

00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:56.160
And that's a long-term model.

00:44:56.384 --> 00:44:59.000
Instead of coming and saying
we're going to do like a trip

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:00.252
and we're going to fix things
and we're going to leave,

00:45:01.054 --> 00:45:02.708
it's a model 
of partnership coming,

00:45:02.708 --> 00:45:03.994
saying,
'Hey, we want to work with you.'

00:45:03.994 --> 00:45:05.169
Do you guys want to
work with us?'

00:45:05.510 --> 00:45:06.565
'Oh, You do? Okay, cool.'

00:45:06.720 --> 00:45:07.997
We're going to work with you
for a little bit

00:45:08.245 --> 00:45:11.142
and see what your 
main concerns are.

00:45:11.641 --> 00:45:12.142
The problem is,

00:45:12.142 --> 00:45:14.086
if they don't bring up 
reforestation first,

00:45:14.086 --> 00:45:15.549
as an anthropologist,

00:45:15.859 --> 00:45:18.675
I'm supposed to not push it,

00:45:18.675 --> 00:45:21.580
not say, 
"We need to reforest your area."

00:45:22.213 --> 00:45:24.780
But maybe they're bringing up
things that lead to them

00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:25.952
being deforestation,

00:45:25.952 --> 00:45:28.473
like having canals 
that are made out of concrete

00:45:28.473 --> 00:45:31.183
rather than mud will allow them
to plant more crops,

00:45:31.183 --> 00:45:33.230
will have less need 
to cut down the trees.

00:45:33.757 --> 00:45:34.327
And so,

00:45:35.711 --> 00:45:39.002
I do want to have a
reforestation program.

00:45:39.149 --> 00:45:40.800
If they are interested in that.

00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:41.833
Then we'll do that.

00:45:41.833 --> 00:45:43.835
And hopefully, 
I'm going to apply the stuff

00:45:43.835 --> 00:45:45.358
I have here and not

00:45:45.600 --> 00:45:48.000
start to switch over to the
other side, so.

00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:48.640
Let's see.

00:45:48.640 --> 00:45:50.558
You guys can keep me in check
with that though.

00:45:51.040 --> 00:45:51.920
Good question though.

00:45:52.141 --> 00:45:53.508
I've got one in the back
first, and then Kelly.

00:45:53.508 --> 00:45:54.021
Yeah.

00:45:54.095 --> 00:45:59.526
(unintelligible) Yeah.

00:45:59.526 --> 00:46:07.941
(unintelligible question)

00:46:08.104 --> 00:46:08.759
For sure.

00:46:09.987 --> 00:46:12.000
I write a lot about that 
in my methods section.

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:13.146
As I said in class,

00:46:13.146 --> 00:46:16.393
my methods section 
was a quarter of my paper,

00:46:16.393 --> 00:46:17.517
25 pages.

00:46:17.517 --> 00:46:19.665
So, I really love methods
'cause I think it

00:46:19.665 --> 00:46:20.351
gets to the root of

00:46:21.061 --> 00:46:22.554
where does this information
come from?

00:46:23.200 --> 00:46:24.520
I have a lens 
that I see it through.

00:46:24.520 --> 00:46:26.237
I have a lens 
that they see it through.

00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:29.120
A lot of different things.

00:46:29.120 --> 00:46:30.946
When you go down the road,
they'll yell out,

00:46:30.946 --> 00:46:32.444
"Blonde," over and over again.

00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:34.845
Particularly, the more rural
you get,

00:46:34.845 --> 00:46:37.476
the more little kids
just run out of nowhere.

00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.160
And they're just like 
'Oh my gosh. Blonde! Blonde!'

00:46:40.160 --> 00:46:41.379
And then run and tell their
friends,

00:46:41.379 --> 00:46:43.215
and then you get 
followed for a while,

00:46:44.206 --> 00:46:45.361
which is great,
I love kids, so

00:46:45.361 --> 00:46:46.284
it worked out alright.

00:46:47.347 --> 00:46:50.261
So, it's really hard 
to blend in.

00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:52.034
You can't go under the radar.

00:46:52.739 --> 00:46:56.143
So instead, 
the way that I dealt with that

00:46:56.151 --> 00:46:58.960
was presenting who I was, 
what I was studying.

00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:01.157
When I sit down people, 
I tell them, 'I'm not an NGO.

00:47:01.640 --> 00:47:03.040
I don't have money to give you.'

00:47:03.040 --> 00:47:04.320
Number one, I,

00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:06.059
whatever you want, 
I don't have money.

00:47:06.059 --> 00:47:07.700
I've worked with a lot of
people before

00:47:07.700 --> 00:47:08.770
that have-

00:47:08.988 --> 00:47:11.111
I talk about how I love 
learning about

00:47:11.111 --> 00:47:12.753
different religions and voodoo

00:47:12.753 --> 00:47:14.640
and different uses of trees 
and that sort of thing.

00:47:14.640 --> 00:47:15.728
That's what I want to hear.

00:47:17.002 --> 00:47:19.200
'Cause a lot of people don't
talk about that at all

00:47:19.200 --> 00:47:20.423
when they're presented by an
outsider

00:47:20.423 --> 00:47:21.427
because they'll be chastised

00:47:21.427 --> 00:47:22.545
if they do talk about it.

00:47:22.942 --> 00:47:25.241
So, really being careful 
about how I present myself.

00:47:26.160 --> 00:47:27.141
In all this was a big part.

00:47:27.669 --> 00:47:29.340
I've also had, 
they don't like beards

00:47:29.340 --> 00:47:29.840
in the country.

00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:30.838
Not a lot of people grow them.

00:47:30.838 --> 00:47:33.638
So it's a little funny anecdote, 
but I had a big,

00:47:33.674 --> 00:47:34.750
full red beard

00:47:35.200 --> 00:47:37.229
by the end of it, 
very big.

00:47:37.769 --> 00:47:40.632
Walking down the road, 
in the middle of a city,

00:47:40.632 --> 00:47:42.010
and somebody came up to me

00:47:42.010 --> 00:47:43.630
and just said something 
and pointed at me

00:47:43.630 --> 00:47:44.460
and then walked away.

00:47:44.853 --> 00:47:46.160
Different cultural norms 
and everything.

00:47:46.160 --> 00:47:47.960
And I couldn't understand the
words that he was saying.

00:47:48.358 --> 00:47:50.287
And then I, so I asked my
translator, I was like,

00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:51.636
'What did he just say to me?'

00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:52.813
He said, 'Oh, he just said

00:47:52.813 --> 00:47:53.911
you're a really, 
really ugly person.'

00:47:53.911 --> 00:47:55.912
(everyone laughs)

00:47:55.912 --> 00:47:58.491
And I was like, 'Oh, okay.'

00:47:58.751 --> 00:48:00.104
But the funny part is 
he didn't seem to have

00:48:00.104 --> 00:48:00.896
malice in his heart.

00:48:00.896 --> 00:48:02.970
He was just telling me, 
'Hey, in case you're not aware,

00:48:02.970 --> 00:48:06.893
you're really ugly.'
(everyone laughs)

00:48:06.893 --> 00:48:08.235
And part of that goes to they 
just don't-

00:48:09.085 --> 00:48:10.075
they don't have beards,

00:48:10.075 --> 00:48:11.304
it's not part 
of their social norm.

00:48:11.304 --> 00:48:12.345
But there's a lot of that.

00:48:13.120 --> 00:48:14.799
A lot of different 
funny things like that.

00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:18.860
Really quickly, one person, 
we had a larger woman

00:48:18.860 --> 00:48:20.097
on one of the trips with us

00:48:20.102 --> 00:48:22.376
and we were crossing a river 
and it got pretty dangerous

00:48:22.376 --> 00:48:24.069
and they almost had to carry us, 
whatever.

00:48:24.529 --> 00:48:26.800
And later he said, 'Oh, I would
have carried you guys.'

00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:27.920
It would have been great,
except for you.

00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:29.120
You're a really fat person.

00:48:29.120 --> 00:48:29.985
You're so fat.

00:48:29.985 --> 00:48:32.239
So, different norms.

00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:33.456
And I have friends 
that come to the U.S.,

00:48:33.456 --> 00:48:34.536
and I need to tell them, 
and they're like,

00:48:34.536 --> 00:48:36.155
'So we're not supposed 
to call people fat?'

00:48:36.155 --> 00:48:38.164
And I'm like no don't 
say that here, so.

00:48:38.959 --> 00:48:39.680
Definitely different.

00:48:39.680 --> 00:48:40.568
I'm learning more and more.

00:48:40.568 --> 00:48:42.156
I make mistakes all the time.

00:48:43.372 --> 00:48:45.697
But yeah, it's very interesting. 
For sure.

00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:47.802
Cool. Kelly.

00:48:47.802 --> 00:48:52.809
(unintelligible) Mmhmm.

00:48:52.809 --> 00:48:58.548
(unintelligible)

00:48:58.640 --> 00:48:59.151
Yeah.

00:48:59.151 --> 00:49:03.123
(unintelligible)

00:49:03.123 --> 00:49:04.367
Yeah. (unintelligible)

00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:07.061
Definitely. Definitely.

00:49:07.073 --> 00:49:16.633
(unintelligible)

00:49:16.633 --> 00:49:18.387
Yeah. I think working with 
ecologists

00:49:18.387 --> 00:49:19.464
would be a great thing

00:49:21.149 --> 00:49:23.025
if the mindset's right, too.
You know.

00:49:23.025 --> 00:49:26.408
And there are different 
varying degrees of ecologists.

00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:28.830
This particular area,

00:49:29.023 --> 00:49:30.790
I didn't show as much
many pictures from other areas.

00:49:30.790 --> 00:49:31.331
Some,

00:49:32.277 --> 00:49:33.520
this is in the lower lands.

00:49:33.520 --> 00:49:35.886
This is very dry.
Then some are very lush.

00:49:36.095 --> 00:49:37.607
And I was surprised 
at how lush they are.

00:49:37.607 --> 00:49:39.671
And they have a lot of trees
nearby the homes.

00:49:39.671 --> 00:49:41.533
A lot of fruit 
and stuff like that.

00:49:42.799 --> 00:49:44.880
It would take a lot of
rebuilding.

00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:46.008
Part of that is

00:49:47.040 --> 00:49:48.591
the local people have helped,

00:49:48.591 --> 00:49:49.687
and we've thought
about this a little bit,

00:49:49.687 --> 00:49:52.473
have helped identify 
those trees that are best in

00:49:53.206 --> 00:49:56.432
salty soils and soils 
that are very thin.

00:49:57.466 --> 00:49:58.723
So this is one of the,

00:49:59.318 --> 00:50:01.782
I show this because this is the
extreme of the extreme.

00:50:02.833 --> 00:50:03.829
But there were places

00:50:03.829 --> 00:50:06.083
where only one species 
of tree could grow.

00:50:06.083 --> 00:50:07.324
It might take a lot of time

00:50:07.324 --> 00:50:08.624
where that was the only 
tree species

00:50:08.624 --> 00:50:10.109
that could grow until
there was more

00:50:10.109 --> 00:50:11.680
and more depositing 
on the land over time.

00:50:11.680 --> 00:50:12.960
But yeah,

00:50:14.616 --> 00:50:16.849
I definitely am all about
interdisciplinary work.

00:50:16.864 --> 00:50:19.383
And I think that that would 
be great too, so yeah.

00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:21.440
Do you want to tell me things,
too?

00:50:22.770 --> 00:50:25.040
Cool. That answer it? 
Yeah. Cool.

00:50:25.158 --> 00:50:26.256
Any other questions?

00:50:26.754 --> 00:50:27.617
Yeah, sure.

00:50:27.617 --> 00:50:30.595
(unintelligible)

00:50:31.241 --> 00:50:32.597
Yeah..

00:50:34.998 --> 00:50:35.686
Mmhmm.

00:50:35.686 --> 00:50:45.900
(unintelligible)

00:50:46.211 --> 00:50:47.332
Yeah, you've hit on

00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:48.956
something very difficult

00:50:50.241 --> 00:50:52.243
in that a lot of the groups
that come in

00:50:52.243 --> 00:50:53.398
that are actually doing

00:50:54.450 --> 00:50:55.844
work in ways that

00:50:56.395 --> 00:50:57.659
I would tell people to do work,

00:50:58.038 --> 00:51:00.514
in terms of having long-term,

00:51:00.514 --> 00:51:02.167
and it's not the case for all, 
but having

00:51:02.167 --> 00:51:03.965
long-term partnerships,
are religious.

00:51:03.965 --> 00:51:05.680
And so what do you do 
about that?

00:51:05.781 --> 00:51:07.517
That's been something I've been
struggling with.

00:51:09.589 --> 00:51:14.156
A big part of it is how you 
present it to the people

00:51:14.156 --> 00:51:15.946
that are going on
the trips to do this,

00:51:15.946 --> 00:51:17.295
the people that are 
partnering with it.

00:51:19.555 --> 00:51:20.574
First of all,

00:51:21.156 --> 00:51:23.668
the group that I'm leading 
is not an evangelical group

00:51:23.668 --> 00:51:24.325
in any way.

00:51:25.049 --> 00:51:27.015
It's just Catholic people 
that feel like

00:51:27.615 --> 00:51:29.333
in their religion they're
taught to

00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.044
do things for the greater good.

00:51:31.258 --> 00:51:31.930
And so,

00:51:32.640 --> 00:51:34.433
while religions 
do a whole lot of

00:51:34.433 --> 00:51:36.915
really horrific, 
horrific things,

00:51:36.915 --> 00:51:39.361
there is this resource, 
if you will,

00:51:39.361 --> 00:51:41.360
of people that wanna do 
good things.

00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:41.901
And so

00:51:42.153 --> 00:51:44.720
instead of totally getting out
of that and dismissing it

00:51:44.726 --> 00:51:45.816
as something that's evil,

00:51:47.088 --> 00:51:48.120
people are still going to do it.

00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:49.890
And so that's where 
I came in and said,

00:51:49.890 --> 00:51:52.148
'Hey, I was raised
in this church,

00:51:52.424 --> 00:51:53.333
and I feel like

00:51:53.809 --> 00:51:55.928
I can help to make these
projects better,

00:51:56.720 --> 00:51:59.756
to make these shift the mindset
from it's not our job to come

00:51:59.756 --> 00:52:01.757
in here and disregard their
knowledge,

00:52:01.802 --> 00:52:03.440
but to appreciate it.'

00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:04.788
And I'll let you know how it
goes.

00:52:05.040 --> 00:52:06.837
But, I have been on trips with

00:52:07.520 --> 00:52:08.816
different parish-to-parish
connections.

00:52:08.816 --> 00:52:10.245
This is not, I'm not

00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:14.400
starting the idea of twin 
this parish to this parish.

00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:15.919
I'm just starting it with 
two new parishes.

00:52:15.919 --> 00:52:17.891
This is something that's been
going on for a long time.

00:52:18.402 --> 00:52:21.372
And actually, I've seen more
good work done by this program

00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:23.520
than any other NGO I've done.

00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:24.468
I am a little biased,

00:52:24.468 --> 00:52:26.509
but I'm really partnering 
with local people,

00:52:26.509 --> 00:52:27.811
listening to what they
have to say.

00:52:28.160 --> 00:52:31.622
There is not enough of taking
in voodoo leaders into that.

00:52:31.940 --> 00:52:33.263
And that's what I hope 
to bring in,

00:52:33.783 --> 00:52:35.292
is not to make it 
a spiritual thing,

00:52:35.708 --> 00:52:37.281
and just make it more

00:52:37.281 --> 00:52:39.317
that we're all fueled 
to do something together.

00:52:39.317 --> 00:52:40.894
Does that answer your question?

00:52:40.894 --> 00:52:46.390
(unintelligible)

00:52:46.390 --> 00:52:46.912
Yeah.

00:52:46.912 --> 00:52:50.692
(unintelligible)

00:52:50.720 --> 00:52:51.347
Mm-hmm.

00:52:54.427 --> 00:52:56.044
Definitely. Definitely.

00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:59.020
So, the majority of people you
talk to

00:52:59.020 --> 00:52:59.930
when you ask them what they are,

00:52:59.930 --> 00:53:01.537
they'll say they're Catholic 
in Haiti.

00:53:02.193 --> 00:53:02.706
By far.

00:53:04.099 --> 00:53:06.561
There's stats out there that
100% of people are voodoo.

00:53:06.561 --> 00:53:07.401
That's not true.

00:53:09.541 --> 00:53:10.956
That's just 
in popular magazines.

00:53:10.956 --> 00:53:11.559
They say that.

00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:12.995
But, 100% of the people,

00:53:12.995 --> 00:53:16.901
I would say, 
have some sort of belief system

00:53:17.431 --> 00:53:20.801
about their lives.

00:53:20.801 --> 00:53:22.302
It would be similar 
to in the United States.

00:53:22.302 --> 00:53:24.160
You know, if you say,
'Oh, you do good things to

00:53:24.160 --> 00:53:25.567
other people, good things are
going to happen.'

00:53:25.762 --> 00:53:27.367
Just some sort of beliefs,

00:53:27.367 --> 00:53:29.135
and some of them 
are associated with trees.

00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:31.595
There's a lot more

00:53:31.913 --> 00:53:33.139
that people don't think

00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:35.823
is not Catholic that people in
the United States would think,

00:53:35.823 --> 00:53:36.679
'Hey, that's not Catholic.'

00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:38.106
A big part of that 
is the veneration

00:53:38.106 --> 00:53:38.908
of the saints.

00:53:39.302 --> 00:53:41.236
They have saints that 
they believe are

00:53:41.931 --> 00:53:43.506
almost deities,
so they'd be called

00:53:43.506 --> 00:53:44.567
almost polytheists.

00:53:44.884 --> 00:53:45.425
And yet,

00:53:46.828 --> 00:53:47.586
and so

00:53:48.109 --> 00:53:50.013
I've found this group 
to be very,

00:53:51.680 --> 00:53:53.293
very receptive to that.

00:53:53.622 --> 00:53:55.323
But yeah, in Haiti, 
you do get a lot of

00:53:55.323 --> 00:53:57.837
synergism of religions
there, syncretic religions.

00:53:58.284 --> 00:54:00.528
And a big part of that is
worshiping Mary,

00:54:00.528 --> 00:54:01.545
worshiping the saints.

00:54:01.707 --> 00:54:03.825
And even some of these saints
have taken the form of

00:54:03.825 --> 00:54:06.870
voodoo gods in the past,
including Saint Sebastian.

00:54:07.150 --> 00:54:08.854
I believe he was tied 
to a tree and shot

00:54:09.494 --> 00:54:10.390
with arrows.

00:54:10.390 --> 00:54:11.279
I don't know why 
(unintelligible)

00:54:11.279 --> 00:54:12.287
but shot with arrows.

00:54:12.655 --> 00:54:16.007
He has taken the form 
of Grand Bois,

00:54:16.007 --> 00:54:17.233
which is the great tree,

00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:18.678
which is a Haitian god.

00:54:18.829 --> 00:54:21.218
And so a lot of times 
when they talk about trees,

00:54:21.218 --> 00:54:23.320
they talk about Saint Sebastian,

00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:25.516
which I know historically 
leads back to Grand Bois.

00:54:25.516 --> 00:54:27.791
So voodooism is there,

00:54:28.671 --> 00:54:31.955
but if I go in as a
Catholic church

00:54:31.955 --> 00:54:34.192
with an open mind 
about what voodooism means,

00:54:34.192 --> 00:54:37.868
or what Catholicism means, 
it's not necessarily shunned.

00:54:38.020 --> 00:54:40.751
If that makes sense.
Cool. Did I get it this time?

00:54:41.134 --> 00:54:44.167
Yeah. Go, yeah, yeah.

00:54:48.686 --> 00:54:50.425
Yeah, super nice to me.

00:54:51.885 --> 00:54:55.360
And a lot of them, 
some of them did

00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:56.753
really great work, 
and some of them

00:54:56.753 --> 00:54:57.546
do do good work.

00:54:57.546 --> 00:54:58.371
I'm just trying,

00:54:58.371 --> 00:54:59.541
anthropology is all about

00:55:00.170 --> 00:55:01.760
being hypercritical sometimes

00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:03.685
and really trying to push
things to the next level.

00:55:04.880 --> 00:55:06.473
I love the NGO people.

00:55:07.174 --> 00:55:09.147
Sometimes they did 
say things to me.

00:55:10.752 --> 00:55:13.006
And some of this I use from not
just my most recent trip,

00:55:13.006 --> 00:55:14.261
but a lot of trips 
that I've had there.

00:55:14.519 --> 00:55:16.210
Some of them do talk like,

00:55:16.210 --> 00:55:17.373
'I don't know, a lot 
of these people are more

00:55:17.373 --> 00:55:19.698
appreciative of us.' 
That's one thing.

00:55:19.698 --> 00:55:20.435
So they're-

00:55:20.435 --> 00:55:21.431
I did have chances though

00:55:21.431 --> 00:55:22.690
to sit down with people 
and be like,

00:55:22.690 --> 00:55:25.042
'Hey, can I teach you a
little bit about Haitian history

00:55:25.042 --> 00:55:26.291
and the history of us
as a country?'

00:55:26.291 --> 00:55:27.741
'Cause a lot of these NGOs

00:55:27.741 --> 00:55:29.360
have worked in many
different countries, so.

00:55:30.539 --> 00:55:31.112
Great people.

00:55:31.776 --> 00:55:33.624
I will say that when I was 
in Port-au-Prince,

00:55:33.632 --> 00:55:34.722
even though there's more

00:55:35.469 --> 00:55:37.572
outsiders working in this
country than anywhere else

00:55:37.572 --> 00:55:39.835
in the world, 
I didn't see any of them

00:55:39.835 --> 00:55:40.650
on the streets.

00:55:40.994 --> 00:55:44.177
As in zero, still, 
when I drive around.

00:55:45.425 --> 00:55:46.493
I see them in

00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:48.248
really nice supermarkets.

00:55:49.205 --> 00:55:51.192
There's three of them in
Port-au-Prince that I know of.

00:55:51.600 --> 00:55:53.756
And I see them 
when I go to their offices.

00:55:53.915 --> 00:55:56.140
So I'm wondering 
how much is there,

00:55:56.140 --> 00:55:56.904
and they were really nice to me

00:55:56.904 --> 00:55:59.113
in all those point and times
and I'm wondering how much

00:55:59.120 --> 00:56:02.120
of a local cultural knowledge
is there with all these NGOs

00:56:02.120 --> 00:56:03.994
if they're never 
interacting with people

00:56:04.232 --> 00:56:05.786
except for 
in this charged environment

00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:06.776
of their office?

00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:10.003
So, any questions?

00:56:10.734 --> 00:56:11.369
Anyone else?

00:56:13.076 --> 00:56:13.632
Cool.

00:56:14.584 --> 00:56:15.717
That's about it.

00:56:15.717 --> 00:56:16.308
[SPEAKER TWO] Thank you 
for coming.

00:56:16.560 --> 00:56:19.440
[JOHN MCGREEVY] Yeah, thanks.
(round of applause)